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C/A thread “survival kit” :
Keep it short, sweet, honest and from the heart. As laconic and precise as possible.

I would discourage posting long excerpts from any authors. Not everybody here is FW, but all are very free spirited – any authorities outside of the Bible is usually cringed upon and dismissed.

Don’t sell yourself short -you can do a better job addressing the point then Piper or McArthur, mainly because you are right here and they are not!

As a result you will get a great debate, ensure that your posts are read and taken seriously, and get tons of love from brethren/sistren plus a healthy dose of adrenalin as a bonus.

For indefinite period of time that is,for just as diamonds, taxes and other things that are claimed to last forever, C/A thread will never end, God bless the administration/owners richly! Good sailing!

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: SureHope

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: SureHope

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

You missed my question. I know what David did. You didn't answer what "wholy devoted" means to you. From 1 Kings 11:4.

That would be an interesting topic, but I am staying focused on and not being sidetracked from the topic of discussion. No man has been man able to do that which God has created him to do and commanded him to do. David is another example of a man who did not fulfill God's purpose and command to love God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.

OK, end of debate on this topic, then. I see being "wholly devoted" as equivalent to loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. If you don't want to answer what being "wholly devoted" means to you, OK.

I answered enough to show that David did not fulfill God’s command to love Him with every fiber of his being. I find it very interesting that you don’t see this obvious fact.

At this point, all I'm asking is what "wholly devoted" means to you. I still don't know.

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You are the only one in control of your sinning or not sinning. You can’t blame it on Adam or say, “the devil made me do it.” If you were more than willing to stop sinning you would stop sinning.

I blame my sin nature for my sin, as Paul did in Rom 6 and 7. Your last statement here indicates you do not understand the sin nature. I don't want to sin, but my sin nature does. There is a constant battle between my sin nature and my human spirit, as Paul noted.

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When you sin you are doing the opposite of loving God. What you just admitted is that you are unable to fulfill God’s command to love Him with every fiber of your being.

Just thought of something. Are you suggesting the command must be continuous? If not, then it is certainly possible to do it at times.

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Actually, your pov is rather silly: God created mankind to seek Him, yet "forgot" or "didn't know how" to create the "preference" needed to seek. The very fact that God created mankind to seek Him should be obvious to anyone with on open mind and desire to seek truth that God would NOT create man without the "necessary preference" to do what He created him to do.

That is your assumption. But if you think my position is silly than you don’t believe in the freedom of the will. Man is free to do that which he prefers to do; that which he wants to do.

Well, did God "forget" to add the ability to seek Him or not? If He created man to seek Him, man HAS the ability to do so. Many don't, and many have.

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Sin is the issue so it must be mentioned. So you don’t think that sin is diametrically opposed to loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? That is the position that your are putting forth. David was dependent upon the grace of God. He offered sacrifices to God to cover his sin. David knew that he was a sinner before God and had failed to fulfill God’s moral law. David is a great example of one who did not fulfill that which God had created him for and that which God commands. Because of this David was reliant upon the grace of God alone.

Did David sin continuously? When he wasn't sinning, but being dependent on the grace of God and offering sacrifices to God to cover his sin, was he loving God with every fiber or not? Please explain.

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Ah, and my point is that no believer sins continuously. So, what are believers doing when they aren't sinning? Why can't you accept that when believers aren't sinning, they are able to love God with every fiber?

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This isn't an "all or nothing" deal, as you seem to think.

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Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. (Ecclesiastes 7:20 NASB95)

Exactly my point! It isn't "all or nothing". We all sin, but we don't sin continuously. What are we doing when we aren't sinning?

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for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23 NASB95)

Yes. Do you sin continuously or occasionally?

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Sin is the opposite of loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Sin shows that the heart is divided; that there are preferences to things other than God Himself. Job was someone who sinned and who repented, showing that he too is an example of someone who did not live up to God’s purpose and command to love Him with all your being, but trusted God’s grace and mercy.

Again, do you sin continuously or occasionally?

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Discuss the issues surrounding the teachings of Calvin.

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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

SureHope,

I am glad you wanted to stay on track with the topic.

You have given good solid answers TOO many times to list.

The POV FreeGrace tries to give on Romans 3:11......there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.........is something he always points back to Psalms 14 as he claims it only applies to a specific group called fools as non-fools seek God on their own.

Psalm 14;

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

FreeGrace has a very bad habit of never reading further to find out more.

Psalm 14 continues;

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I guess the text should be clarified?

Maybe one day it will be when some free-will translation team writes the free-will edition of the Bible.

It might be more like;

1Only the fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. The fools are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is no fool that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God, and He saw Cornelius seeking.

3They are all gone aside except for Cornelius and all the other people that are not fools, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one, except for Cornelius and all those with a good natured free-will.

I am not trying to say things out of line here......so is that SORT of how his POV comes across to you?

I am certainly not looking forward to such a translation.

KJB

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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

balbas,

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This Lord's day is shaping out to be a very blessed one.

Amen to that!

The devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour and it is no wonder; for even Satan himself is able to take the form of an angel of light.

KJB

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ORIGINAL: steve7150

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Discuss the issues surrounding the teachings of Calvin.

I think Calvinism is dead wrong. The few verses that speak of the elect in Christ can mean that it is Christ who is elected from before the foundation of the world and by being in him is how we are elect of God.

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ORIGINAL: SureHope
As far as this debate goes, it does not mean loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

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You are the only one in control of your sinning or not sinning. You can’t blame it on Adam or say, “the devil made me do it.” If you were more than willing to stop sinning you would stop sinning.

I blame my sin nature for my sin, as Paul did in Rom 6 and 7. Your last statement here indicates you do not understand the sin nature. I don't want to sin, but my sin nature does. There is a constant battle between my sin nature and my human spirit, as Paul noted.

Paul did not blame sin on sin nature in Rom 6, What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Rom 6:1-2 ESV)

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We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. (Rom 6:6-7 ESV)

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! (Rom 6:12-15 ESV)

Paul was calling on the will of Christians to stop sinning and live righteously. He is not saying that Christians have an excuse for their sin, quite the opposite. No one makes you sin but yourself. You have free will, remember?

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When you sin you are doing the opposite of loving God. What you just admitted is that you are unable to fulfill God’s command to love Him with every fiber of your being.

Just thought of something. Are you suggesting the command must be continuous? If not, then it is certainly possible to do it at times.

If it is possible for a person to be sinless for one minute does in no way mean that he is fulfilling the purpose for which God created him. God created man to love Him all the time, not for a few moments of a day with God dishonoring, God belittling sin in-between.

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Actually, your pov is rather silly: God created mankind to seek Him, yet "forgot" or "didn't know how" to create the "preference" needed to seek. The very fact that God created mankind to seek Him should be obvious to anyone with on open mind and desire to seek truth that God would NOT create man without the "necessary preference" to do what He created him to do.

That is your assumption. But if you think my position is silly than you don’t believe in the freedom of the will. Man is free to do that which he prefers to do; that which he wants to do.

Well, did God "forget" to add the ability to seek Him or not? If He created man to seek Him, man HAS the ability to do so. Many don't, and many have

Did God forget to give you the ability to love Him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? Did God forget to give you the ability to be sinless and perfect even though he commands us to be perfect?

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Sin is the issue so it must be mentioned. So you don’t think that sin is diametrically opposed to loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? That is the position that your are putting forth. David was dependent upon the grace of God. He offered sacrifices to God to cover his sin. David knew that he was a sinner before God and had failed to fulfill God’s moral law. David is a great example of one who did not fulfill that which God had created him for and that which God commands. Because of this David was reliant upon the grace of God alone.

Did David sin continuously? When he wasn't sinning, but being dependent on the grace of God and offering sacrifices to God to cover his sin, was he loving God with every fiber or not? Please explain.

The reason that David and all other OT saints offered Sin Sacrifices to God was because they sinned continuously enough to have to offer the sacrifices.

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A person that loves God with every fiber of his being will not love anything else above God. That will only happen when we are in heaven with God. God did not make man to love Him some of the time. So even if a person managed to love God with his complete being for a few moments he has not fulfilled the reason for God creating him.

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Ah, and my point is that no believer sins continuously. So, what are believers doing when they aren't sinning? Why can't you accept that when believers aren't sinning, they are able to love God with every fiber?

Again, God created man to love Him continuously, not in starts and spurts.

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This isn't an "all or nothing" deal, as you seem to think.

It is to God. God has created us to love God with every fiber of our being and all of us have refused to do so. The only reason any will end in eternity with God is being justified by faith alone and not because our affections are solely God’s. The genuine Christian who is growing in grace will always see new depths of his sin and, thank God, new depths of God’s grace. With all your heart, mind, soul and strength does not mean spurts of loving God with sins in between. This shows a person with a divided heart.

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Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. (Ecclesiastes 7:20 NASB95)

Exactly my point! It isn't "all or nothing". We all sin, but we don't sin continuously. What are we doing when we aren't sinning?

We can be thankful for God's grace alone. God's Law requires 100% obedience, which translates into continously loving Him.

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What are we doing when we [think] we aren't sinning? Writing posts with sinful attitudes. Exalting self, harboring grudges, self-pity, covetous, etc, etc, etc. . . . . In other words, when are you acting perfectly? Never until we are in heaven.

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for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23 NASB95)

Yes. Do you sin continuously or occasionally?

The more that I grow and grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ the more I know I sin continuously.

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Sinning is not merely outward actions, but attitudes, thoughts, affections, desires, etc. The exhortation to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, the fact that we are being transformed from glory to glory, and the fact that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son of God shows us that we are not perfected as of yet. Therefore, we do not love perfectly as God deserves and God requires. Thank God we are justified by faith!

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Sin is the opposite of loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Sin shows that the heart is divided; that there are preferences to things other than God Himself. Job was someone who sinned and who repented, showing that he too is an example of someone who did not live up to God’s purpose and command to love Him with all your being, but trusted God’s grace and mercy.

Again, do you sin continuously or occasionally?

see above

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ORIGINAL: umcbee
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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
balbas,
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This Lord's day is shaping out to be a very blessed one.
Amen to that!
The devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour and it is no wonder; for even Satan himself is able to take the form of an angel of light. KJB

Maybe you can explain too me , why under Calvinism is the above Scripture meaningfull ? After all , it serves the devil no purpose in prowling around in seeking anyone to devour : he can't deceive the elect ; there is no need to deceive the reprobate ; God has already condemned them to hell before the foundation of the world . God filled hell with souls even before Satan entered the Garden of Eden , heck , even before the foundation of the world . And since the elect (individually elected before the foundation of the world) are guaranteed salvation , the devil can have no affect on their salvation whatsoever . Under Calvinist theology , God has already done all the devil's work for him : the reprobate don't need deceiving because there's no way they can ever be saved to begin with ; and the elect can never be deceived out of salvation .

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So what can possibly be the devil's point in seeking anyone to devour ? Or maybe he just don't believe in Calvinism either ?

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We don't need a new translation ; but a little more clarifing seem's in order .

Why do you always stop at verse 3 ?

Pa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge ? who eat up my people as they eat bread , and call not upon the Lord .

Verse 4 carries on the thought of verse 1 and clarifies v.s 2 & 3 . Psalm 53 says exactly the samething .

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So what can possibly be the devil's point in seeking anyone to devour ? Or maybe he just don't believe in Calvinism either ?

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Obviously, he doensn't, or he wouldn't bother "seeking whom to devour". Also, from John 8:24, Jesus doesn't believe in Calvinism either, or He wouldn't have bothered warning the "non-elect" and even giving them the potential solution to their problem!

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: kelman
I disagree with your pov on an issue - only in your world does that make it "too difficult for me to grasp". This is the same ploy you continually use on anyone who doesn't agree with you.

If you do grasp my pov, why haven't you been accurate when you attempt to characterize it, then? It certainly appears that you haven't grasped it.

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You fail to recognize the fact that God created creatures, both angelic and mankind, with freedom to act and choose. That means that what is chosen by man or angel was caused by man or angel. I suspect that is too difficult for you to grasp.

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And, btw, more disingenuousness on your part. There isn't the slightest indication anywhere of KJB not knowing the difference between a narrative and a parable - that's just more of your "stupid" insinuations.

He said whether John 8:24 was a parable or not was not important. What does that mean to you?

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It was obvious to anyone, without your agenda of insinuating other people are stupid, what he was saying. He made his point using the example of Christ speaking in parables: "Some of these people were given no understanding and yet He still spoke to them in parables that He knew they were not grasping."

But the point is that Christ told His elect disciples that they were given understanding. So, why haven't any of the elect reformed ones been able to understand WHY Jesus said what He said in John 8:24? Hasn't Jesus given you the understanding of that verse?

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ORIGINAL: shemaromans

Thank you for reposting the information and your questions, FreeGrace, and thank you for bringing up this passage. I enjoyed spending time with it this afternoon.

Please, please, please do not chop up my post and write twenty times "WHY haven't you answered the question?" I share my conclusion at the end of the post.

In the meantime, I tried to explain what I think about the scripture since you've said that you appreciate such commentary (hopefully I was successful).

John 8
I Am the Light of the World
12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." 13So the Pharisees said to him, "You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true." 14Jesus answered, "Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. 18I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me." 19They [the Pharisees] said to him therefore, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20These words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; but no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come.

21So he said to them again [the scribes and the Pharisees], "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come." 22So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." 25So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him." 27They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." 30As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
Jesus is reminding them (“I told you…”) of the times that he did tell them about himself and his purpose on earth. They didn’t believe him or get it.

They immediately respond by asking who he is. They still don’t get it. He responds, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.” So we see that he’s already told them in the past who he is and what the consequence will be for not believing in him.

******

Why did Jesus warn this group? I don’t see it as a warning. Instead, what Jesus is doing is reminding them about what he went around telling everyone during his ministry. To have eternal life, they must believe in him.

Let’s look again at the text before and after the verse:

21So he said to them again [the scribes and the Pharisees], "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come." He’s telling them what will happen. 22So the Jews said, "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" They don’t understand what he’s saying. 23He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." He’s reminding them of what he’s already told them--that he’s God. 25So they said to him, "Who are you?" Evidence that they still didn’t understand. Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. This sentence shows that Jesus really had been telling them all along. Another reminder. (I have no idea how he could be that patient!) 26I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him."

Declare to the world.
That last bit shows me that Jesus repeated himself to the scribes, Pharisees, and the Jews in general on multiple occasions so that the external call of salvation—the gospel—would be made known to everyone. The Jews heard it, and the writers of the gospels recorded it for both the Jews and the Gentiles.

I still want to study this more, but for now, I see that Jesus is using the scribes, the Pharisees, and the Jews in general as a means to reveal God’s plan of salvation (unfolding from start to finish just as prophesied), to establish the gospel, and to declare it to the world.


If I've written clearly but you disagree, then I suspect the problem might be in that you consider Jesus' comment to be a warning and I do not.

I'll answer your other questions probably tomorrow of the next day. I'm sleepy!

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We see similiar action on the part of Christ in John 6. He is teaching the multitudes and disciples in Capernaum as He explains that He is the "bread from heaven" and that they must believe on Him.

He teaches all these knowing precisely those who will not believe - still He teaches "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

It is exactly as you say "that Jesus is using the scribes, the Pharisees, and the Jews in general as a means to reveal God’s plan of salvation (unfolding from start to finish just as prophesied), to establish the gospel, and to declare it to the world."

Christ teaches and explains the Gospel even to those whose eyes are blind, whose ears are not opened and whose heart is stony.

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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
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God "scripted" the Crucifixion, we see this in both the OT and the NT. Yet, God still says the evildoers are accountable. How do you explain that? We see God “scripted” the exodus from Eygpt. Yet, God still held Pharoah accountable. How do you explain that?
That does not say He "chose" the individual, and shut out any chance of him being saved, because he happened to be the one God "needed" for that act. With enough wicked in the world, including people being hardened for persistant sin and refusal to repent, God would not have to preordain individuals to engage in the crucifixion or any other prophetic wicked act. And like Pharaoh, their "blinding" that Christ spoke of beforehand was in part to give them the courage to carry it out.

You say God "wouldn't have to" but the point is He did. We see the prophesy concerning Judas in the OT(Psalm 41:9). Obviously, none of the other wicked would qualify. If a prophecy is certain to happen then it must be ordained.

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Do you think God has changed how He deals with man?
I hope so. Wouldn't want to be still under the Law!

Cute...but not responsive to what I actually said. Unless, of course you do think that God no longer punishes sin.

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But then again, accountability for man would have no meaning.

Actually, God insists that man is accountable. God determined the crucifixion of Christ, the evildoers chose to sin according to their nature and inclinations and God holds them accountable.

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Yes, I agree they were representing the nations; but, still as individuals they were chosen. Esau represents the nations which God hates, those who are not elect and Jacob represents the elect that which God loves. They are, as you say, “representative” obviously God saves people in all nations. But, we still can’t get passed the fact that Jacob was individually elected and Esau was not.

But you're jumping things from one thing to another. This passage has been used to prove that God hates individuals, and then scripts a sequence of events to justify burning them in Hell. The personal "election" of either Jacob or Esau is nowhere mentioned. Because; it's about the use of the nations springing forth from them to bring forth the Savior; not about personal salvation at that point. That's what that Savior would be for).

The fact that the passage says that "before either had done good or evil" is clear indication God is speaking of individuals. No one is "scripting" a sequence of events to justify anything; but, it does appear you are attempting to "script" your way out of what is very clear - the election of individuals.

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They're probably deciding that because of the explosion of the carnal Christian doctrine. A doctrine gone so far astray of Scripture it teaches that if a man once "believed" it makes no difference if were to walk away from God even so far as to die an atheist - still he is saved.
Yea; but that does not give anyone the license to up the ante and demand a certain amount of works, else, you are not saved. We warn people about faking and examining themselves, and that's it.

I agree no one has a right to demand "enough" works; but, tell me, do they have a list or something?

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How does unconditional election and limited atonement depend upon God supposedly giving a "false faith"? I don't see the connection.

Because that is to explain people "falling away"; who seemed genuilely saved at one point.

Still, I don't think generally God gives "false" faith. Man does a good enough job of that himself. I say generally because we do see God sends a false delusion in 2Thes 2:11.

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I’m not sure I understand your answer. Are you saying it wasn’t God’s plan that Adam would sin? Scripture speaks of Christ as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world and believers’ names being written in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of the world. Please explain this if you don’t think it was God’s plan that Adam should sin? And, if all this is true, and it is, then how is God “not” the primary cause of sin?
So now, you're saying He is the primary cause of sin? I though most [non-hyper] Calvinists denied that.

Then you are mistaken. That God is the primary cause of sin is not disputed by Reformed Theology.

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: SureHope
You have major problems with you statement, “since you continue to think that it is ‘sin’ that dishonors God.” I guess you think “sin” honors God?

You seem to be having "major problems" understanding my statements. Your silly conclusion is baseless, that I think that sin honors God. The issue from Rom 1 is that ignoring and not seeking God is what dishonors Him, in spite of His making His existence clearly seen to everyone.

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Seeking God denotes that someone does not know Him.

No, seeking God denotes that the person has become aware of the existen ce of god and His power, nature, and attributes and wants to know more.

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No one seeks that which they are unaware of. Such as fools, who claim there is no God. Such ones do not seek Him, as Psa 14 and 53 state.

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Why is it that someone does not know God? The reason men do not know God is because of sin.

The ONLY reason people don't know God is because they fail to seek Him. Because, if they did seek Him, as the Scriptures promise, they WILL find Him.

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Even though God has revealed Himself in creation, man has chosen not to honor Him as God (many believe that God exists, but do not honor Him as the God that He has revealed Himself to be in creation) or give thanks. All are without excuse for Sin. The essence of sin is being God dishonoring.

No, all are without excuse for not seeking Him. Since you and completely disagree on what we are without excuse, there is no reason to continue this endless discussion.

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ORIGINAL: tdd1975

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So what can possibly be the devil's point in seeking anyone to devour ? Or maybe he just don't believe in Calvinism either ?

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Obviously, he doensn't, or he wouldn't bother "seeking whom to devour". Also, from John 8:24, Jesus doesn't believe in Calvinism either, or He wouldn't have bothered warning the "non-elect" and even giving them the potential solution to their problem!

Guys, I don't think I would brag to much about having the same theology as the Devil.

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ORIGINAL: kelman

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
He said whether John 8:24 was a parable or not was not important. What does that mean to you?

What it means is obvious to anyone without a "stupid" agenda. Whether something is or is not a parable does not mean you don't know the difference between a parable and a narrative and you know darn well it doesn't. He was simply indicating that the principle is the SAME because Christ preached to those He KNEW would not believe when He taught in parables as He was doing in John 8:24; and, I might add in many other passages as well.

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It was obvious to anyone, without your agenda of insinuating other people are stupid, what he was saying. He made his point using the example of Christ speaking in parables: "Some of these people were given no understanding and yet He still spoke to them in parables that He knew they were not grasping."

But the point is that Christ told His elect disciples that they were given understanding. So, why haven't any of the elect reformed ones been able to understand WHY Jesus said what He said in John 8:24? Hasn't Jesus given you the understanding of that verse?

How cute, FG. The "understanding" of Jn 8:24 is plain and simple - apparently, though, it looks like Jesus didn't give you the understanding.