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even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/16/2008 12:19:17 AM
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attheend
Posts: 13
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super condensed version; first time on here. can't go into the long, long, long history and story. but,
married 25+ years. 10 years ago started the 'distancing'. i tried to address problems every 6 months or so. met with indifference or compliance - things better for a little while.
Now...
2.3 years since physical intimacy!! yes you read that right. 2 years and 4 months (today).
Christian counselor called over a year a go. Still no physical intimacy. No intimacy on any level; spiritual, emotional, intellectual...physical.
All this...plus the over a year since huge red flag and still no 'urgency' or action on his part.
So emotional neglect and physical abandonment. Not cause for divorce? This is not lovinig your wife as Christ loved the church.
Now - i feel NO 'romantic', eros love. I care, yes. We're okay roommates yes. But ITS JUST TOO LATE.
How can i be expected to stay when i do not love.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/16/2008 8:07:07 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 2060
Joined: 3/24/2008
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I can only imagine the frustration and hurt. But don't you want to figure out why this is going on and what got you to this point? You said there's a longer story; there's got to be! But leaving isn't going to end the pain...
When I was 3 years old, my mother took me to see Bambi. Once the forest fire started, I got absolutely freaked out! I was hiding behind the seats crying. My poor mother didn't know if it would be best to get me out of there mid-movie with those scenes burned onto my brain or to make me stay to see the "happy" ending. I think she dragged me out; I don't remember anything about Bambi's mother getting shot - but I still remember those flames 30+ years later.
...If you stay, yea, there might be more sad stuff to come...but if you leave you take that pain with you. I know it's easy for me to say but I just wouldn't be ready to give up yet with so many unanswered questions.
You probably feel like you've tried a million things. Seems like the only option you really have is to really commit this, and yourself, to God and let Him start working. I'm convinced that the only thing a wife can do to change her marriage is to change herself. When there's so much a husband is doing to hurt her and to hurt the marriage, that's hard to hear. But marital problems are never ONE person's fault - even if it's almost all one person's fault, there's always something the other needs to change. And when you take it to God, He's really only going to want to talk with you about YOU. I truly believe that when one spouse really turns to God and learns to become the wife or husband God has called him or her to be (which is the only thing you have any control over), the other person has to respond one way or another. That's where it comes down to the other person having the choice to either turn their hard heart from God and from their marriage or to also humble their heart and life before God and let Him restore the marriage. It's going to be their choice. But, if you're still walking in obedience to God, living as a godly wife is taught to live, no matter what happens, you'll walk away with the blessing and favor of God.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/16/2008 10:01:49 AM
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Szaftoo
Posts: 795
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From: So. Calif.
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Welcome.
Maybe it would help if you could pinpoint when this happened. How old is your husband and are there any plysical challenges in his life. What about his work situation or other responsibilities? Any problems with parents or other family?
Any changes in your own life?
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/16/2008 10:57:55 AM
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attheend
Posts: 13
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hi
I have done it all. I have turned it over to God. I've sought his voice and his guidance. I know all the biblical verses. Even as i write this I'm away fasting and praying for God to talk to me. I've been on my face crying out to him because of this situation.
I do respect him. I do care for him. He is not an evil man. He is not physically abusive so no one sees the 'abuse', BUT he is NOT loving me. It is not biblical for a man to not make love to his wife.
I've heard a hundred times the verses that say don't divorce.
Rarely does someone look at the examples in Song of Songs, or 1Cor, "the husband is to fulfill his marital duties to his wife"; and in a number of places 'the two will become one flesh'. And he is to love his wife as Christ loves the church. There are twice as many verses devoted to telling the man to love his wife as there are telling the wife to respect her husband. I'm not using that as an excuse, just the facts.
Two are to become one. There must be oneness in marriage.
All the psychological baggage? I'm aware of that- I've said we need to know ourselves and have to look back but he says there is no reason to look back. He won't go there.
The bottom line is we were at a criitical stage. I asked for us to face our problems. I sought wise counsel and did not hide truth - about myself or him. I was ready and willing and wanting to make it work. I begged.
He said, "I love you", "You are my priority"...and yet he did not take steps toward intimacy: emotional or physical.
He says the right things over and over then does not act.
God detests divorce. But Christ came to bring abundant life.
The focus, even here from each moderator, is on the "sin" of divorce instead of the sin of neglect. This has not been a rush decision. I even sought counsel from our lead pastor. He said that my husband is sinning against me.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/16/2008 11:09:50 AM
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attheend
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I have analyzed all. The problem is that we weren't a good match from the beginning. We were unbelievers, caught up in sex and drugs. Very self-centered, spontaneous. Thinking we were in control.
I was save 13 years ago and I DID change. He referenced this in a big 'blow out' we had just last week. He said things were "fine" then I changed.
When I asked him to come to the counselor he even said, at that time, that he thought our marriage was 'fine'. We had not made love in over a year and he thought things were fine?!
Yes there are some physical issues. He is 60. BUT...a year ago...(I keep referring to that to remind you that I've "hung in there" for another year even after ALL was brought up...again...with expert help)...anyway, BUT, there is more to "your body is not your own" and "loving your wife as Christ loved the church" than intercourse. There are things which can be done besides that...and there are things that can be done to help e.d., etc...
He was saved 7 years ago...but there as not been real change.
I have no desire now. It is gone for him. I can't make it happen. I can't "muster up love" because I've been abandoned emotionally and physically. It's just too long. I tried...but its gone.
I'm 50 and pretty intelligent and not bad looking and I am passionate and want my life to be full. I want to know God fully and be transformed spiritually for the sake of others. BUT i do not love the man i'm married to.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/16/2008 11:55:26 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 2060
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quote:
ORIGINAL: attheend
I have done it all. I have turned it over to God. I've sought his voice and his guidance. I know all the biblical verses. Even as i write this I'm away fasting and praying for God to talk to me. I've been on my face crying out to him because of this situation.
Ephesians 6:13 NIV
Therefore put on the full armor of God [truth, righteousness, faith, peace, salvation, prayer], so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
So don't give up now! Is he in sin, yes? Does that mean you should give in and rebel against what you know God's Word says? God doesn't need him to straighten up to be able to move in your life. Let him do that first, which will require your faith and obedience, and then let Him take of whatever will happen next.
quote:
ORIGINAL: attheend
I'm 50 and pretty intelligent and not bad looking and I am passionate and want my life to be full. I want to know God fully and be transformed spiritually for the sake of others. BUT i do not love the man i'm married to.
Walking away from your marriage will not end the pain. It will bring a whole new pain of it's own that is unavoidable. Can God forgive if you make that decision and heal you down the road? Yes. But why not let Him deal with you and heal you where you are and avoid that pain. Who knows, you might end up in the same place - divorced (if he remains hard hearted) but you'll be walking in God's blessing and provision. If you walk out now, IMO, you step out of that blessing and provision and choose a whole new very real phase of great pain. God will still be faithful. But when we don't do these things His way, we only hurt ourselves.
What is there to lose by hanging in and seeing what He can do? Is it hard to remain in your current situation - YES! So let God change even your current situation - trusting in Him, regardless of the position you're in, He can bless you and keep you and restore peace and joy before anything in your marriage or life actually changes.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
...You know it but do you know it yet? Read it, stand on it, read it again - 100x/day if you have to - even if you don't feel it. You will.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/16/2008 4:07:14 PM
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hnt
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Its a shame that people can't come along side of him to help him in this sin.
_____________________________
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Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 10:55:56 AM
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Simway
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Your husband can chage , if he wants to. That is the question, and it looks like he isn't intarested in doing so. As others have said, leaving will not make the pain go away, if anything it may make it worse. I really don't know what to tell. I would say stay close to God, ask for wisdom, ask for direction, and take these things and use them everyday. God does love you, he cares, and will help you and your husband. Simway
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 12:24:06 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1096
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It's perfectly clear that your husband is sinning against you.
The Bible gives clear instructions about what to do if someone sins against you.
1) Speak to them and name the sin
2) Go with one or more others
3) Bring it before the Church
4) Church discipline kicks in
Oh, and forgive whether he repents or not. That's important. Daily. Whether he changes or not. Forever.
He's sinning against you, but it is entirely possible to live with a sinner and have a life of peace, wonder and holiness before God. (There are a lot of specific instructions in I Cor about those who are married to sinners.)
You don't have to sin back at him. Nothing about living with a roommate prevents you from having an abundant and fruitful life. (Unforgiveness, bitterness, resentment and blaming God, however, will ruin you.)
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 12:36:54 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 2060
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
It's perfectly clear that your husband is sinning against you.
The Bible gives clear instructions about what to do if someone sins against you.
1) Speak to them and name the sin
2) Go with one or more others
3) Bring it before the Church
4) Church discipline kicks in
Oh, and forgive whether he repents or not. That's important. Daily. Whether he changes or not. Forever.
He's sinning against you, but it is entirely possible to live with a sinner and have a life of peace, wonder and holiness before God. (There are a lot of specific instructions in I Cor about those who are married to sinners.)
You don't have to sin back at him. Nothing about living with a roommate prevents you from having an abundant and fruitful life. (Unforgiveness, bitterness, resentment and blaming God, however, will ruin you.)
In all fairness, they're both sinners. And they don't have to live like roommates either if that's what you meant at the end.
1 Peter 3:1.Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,
2.when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.
3.Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes.
4.Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.
5.For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,
6.like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
7.Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.
I told someone else this recently, whether he's saved or not, he's living like an unbeliever - at the very least, not believing God wants more for his life and his marriage and not walking according to God's Word with you or in general. So this says it's a quiet, gentle spirit that will win him over. When you're living with the stress and distance and tension in the home that you are, I'm sure you're having a really hard time being quiet and gentle - quiet maybe but not gentle. You can only do that with the Holy Spirit and refocused on Him rather than on what your husband is or isn't doing. But I really still believe this can not just be tolerable but can be transformed by the Lord into the marriage He wants you both to have. Whatever issues and hurts have gotten you to this point only God can really deal with and heal those. You don't have to wait for him to be on board or to rise to the challenge of leadership in his home like he should - as nice as that would be, you have to take this into your own hands - spiritually speaking. You can't really change your marriage, you can only change half of it...start there.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 1:20:44 PM
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Hislittleone
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Attheend, I can certainly empathize with your situation because that is how my marriage used to be. My husband rejected me physically and emotionally for many years. We even ended up divorced (his choice). By the grace of God we have now been remarried for 5 years. It hasn't been easy and we are still working on recovery. When I realized that my husband was using porn to take care of his needs and let him know that I was leaving him because of it he repented. We had been through the issue with porn many times with many empty promises on his part to quit. I didn't know about the other problem in it's entirety until things came to a head in 2007. That's when I decided (after reading Every Heart Restored by Fred and Brenda Stoeker) that I needed to leave if he didn't repent. Although I had threatened to leave many times in the past, my husband knew that I was serious this time. It gave him a much needed wake up call.
IMO when a man or woman rejects their spouse like this it's almost like a divorce has occurred. It's like that spouse is walking away from the marriage even though they aren't physically moving out of the house. (I'm not saying that the offended spouse can live as if they are divorced because it's not legally a divorce.). Having lived through it, I understand the deep pain it causes. It's hard to imagine living the rest of your life like that. And I never got to a point where I was happy in spite of my husband's neglect. Many women in your situation will just end up throwing themselves into other areas of life (children, work, volunteering, hobbies, friendships etc.). But according to the books I've read that is an unhealthy approach. It does nothing to bring restoration. Sadly because many men never change for the better and the wives don't want to leave, they are left trying to find a way to cope with the pain.
And I'm not sure God will always remove that pain. Your anger and pain is in reaction to your husband's sin. That's a normal, healthy reaction to sin. When someone sins against us it is hurtful and it destroys the relationship. As long as we are in a relationship with someone who sins against us on a daily basis it's going to hurt.
I do believe it's important to forgive. But forgiving doesn't excuse the sin nor does it restore the relationship.
IMO you need to take pbaribeault's advice about confronting him, bringing a witness the second time etc. If none of that works I would find it understandable if you were to separate.
Going on the way things are right now enables your husband to continue living in sin comfortably. It's time he become UNcomfortable. It would be my hope and prayer that God would use that discomfort to bring him to repentance.
I have found much support on THIS site. If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend Every Heart Restored . It specifically addresses marriages that have been damaged by the husband's porn use but it also addresses situations like ours where the husband rejects the wife physically. Unfortunately, not many books address that issue. You can purchase it in your local bookstore or
HERE. Feel free to pm me if you like. Hugs (((attheend)))
ETA: Has your husband ever been involved with pornography? You don't have to answer that if you don't want to but it would give a bit of insight into what might be causing this problem. Also, IMO that gives Biblical grounds for divorce.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 1:38:36 PM
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attheend
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thank you all for your comments. I take your words to heart. I believe God's word; I love my Lord. I have been gentle. There is submission in my respect, but not towards him as leader of the house because he does not lead!
May I dare to be completely honest? The bottom line - I need physical touch! I need my husband to want me. This is not a wrong or sinful 'feeling'. This is infact how God created me...created all of us. And he created the man to lead in this and to 'unite with his wife'. How do you respect someone who neglects you? Not just that, how does a wife who has asked for it, continue to respect and honor her husband who adbandons that for 2.3 years!!!!!!!! My life can be fruitful in many ways. I'm not sitting around having a pity party for myself. By the strength of the Holy Spirit I 'keep on'....but please don't tell me that my life can be full married to a man who won't make love too me. MEN - IF YOU ARE MARRIED - what do you say about this? (Remember, I'm not alone in this. I am in Christian counseling and have talked to our lead Pastor.)
I do act respectful...civil. I suggested a separation 3 months ago but we have not done that so I continue make his lunch and wash his whites. I haven't just shunned him.
I am not Christlike...just journeying to that end. I am a sinner with loads of hurt from past things, too, besides regular 'humanness' and daily life. BUT I am working on my spiritual transformation and being honest about my iniquities. I have tried to bring into the open the needs in our marriage and I have done so with grace and truth. I have asked him what he needs, what he wants. I've tried to MAKE myself remember that it is not all about me and my unmet needs. But years upon years and then the final "called the counselor" (not a lawyer!) and still the response is nil - no real actions, just words that now I don't trust.
Time is wearing me down. It is eroding my hope. I am a mere mortal woman with real God created needs. God's word is truth. Jesus is the Truth. I KNOW. Believe me, this is why I'm writing from this home.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 2:10:35 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10366
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From: Lone Star State
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quote:
By the strength of the Holy Spirit I 'keep on'....but please don't tell me that my life can be full married to a man who won't make love too me. MEN - IF YOU ARE MARRIED - what do you say about this? I hesitate to get into a discussion on sexual matters on the forums with the opposite sex. To do so will guarantee this thread will be moved to the women only folder.
But I will tell you this: your husband is 60. I am 53. I know I have slowed down in the past few years. Medication I take plays a part, but it is also the age. I also know that I still desire my wife, but that "slow down" and failure to perform has affected my ability to satisfy her. No man, no matter what his age, wants to be perceived as a failure. So, for a man to withdraw away from the act of sex in this case is not uncommon.
There are also other issues between my wife and I that I will not mention, just as I'm sure there are other issues between the two of you that are best left off the forums. But the bottom line is that yes, your life can be full being married to that man. You being 50 are going through a change in yourself too, hormones are changing and your frustration may be because of that fact.
I don't know, I don't really have any advice for you but that the best place to start right now may be with the medical profession, for BOTH of you.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 3:05:23 PM
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evryknee
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attheend,
I'm sorry for your pain. I have spoken to some men who do not have sex with their wives. Reasons can be pornography, bitterness, medical, depresion, to name a few. I don't know what his excuses are, but agree he is sin. Obviously, this is very painful for you.
I don't know how to say this without sounding uncompassionate, so if I sound that way, please allow grace. The focus on your posts above has been on what your husband has failed to do. He has failed. So, since he has failed to fulfill your "needs" (I say needs in quotes as this itself can be debatable - needs vs. wants - but certainly to be one in marriage, love for the other person is essential), then you will ....what? Divorce him and then what? Find someone who will fill your needs (spoken in love, not sarcasm) or just be alone?
I don't want to minimize the hurt that you have felt and feel. I think Christ identifies with your pain and suffering to a great extent, as our bridegroom whose bride has decidedly ceased to be intimate with Him. My only guidance would be to focus not your husbands failings, but on Christ's love as your bridegroom who never fails to offer love, but does so regularly.
I have a friend who is in the same or similar situation as you. She is about 60 and her husband has not kissed her, made love to her, or hardly even talk to her for close to ten years, but he just watches TV. She has shared with me that her husband is Christ. She continues to desire more from her husband, but does not demand it. She involves herself in the Lord's work and finds blessing serving others to the best of her ability. She is a mentor of mine whom I deeply respect. Her hurt is still there, but she has a relationship with the Lord that she would never have known but from her heartache. She recognizes this, continues to pray for her husband, and goes forward with the Lord. This is her journey (a small part of it), and many women have been blessed by her testimony as it gives hope that there is a greater Love, to love God and be filled loved by Christ, the husband. This is her purpose. May the Lord give you wisdom as you continue to seek Him!
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 3:22:16 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10366
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From: Lone Star State
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I posted the above to mainly say that with age, sex IS going to change in a marriage. What do you expect it to be when you are 65 and 75? 75 and 85 or more?
So I disagree. I don't think it HAS to be a matter of sin, unless there are factors of pornography or an affair. If there is bitterness on his part, then there are two of you involved in that.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 6:09:58 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 2060
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evryknee
I don't want to minimize the hurt that you have felt and feel. I think Christ identifies with your pain and suffering to a great extent, as our bridegroom whose bride has decidedly ceased to be intimate with Him. My only guidance would be to focus not your husbands failings, but on Christ's love as your bridegroom who never fails to offer love, but does so regularly.
Wow, thanks for that perspective.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 6:21:41 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 628
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quote:
No intimacy on any level; spiritual, emotional, intellectual...physical.
Because of this statement I would assume that he is indeed in sin. Just because one can't perform because of age in the same way they used to in younger years doesn't mean that ALL physical intimacy has to stop. Nor should intimacy stop on all the other levels...emotional, spiritual and intellectual. This man is sinning against God and against his wife.
quote:
10 years ago started the 'distancing'.
Plus this started 10 years ago.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/17/2008 6:27:59 PM
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all.consuming.fire
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I DONT think that God wants you to get a divorce. I really really strongly feel in my heart that you should work through this with your husband. I am not married or anything, never was, but I feel in my heart that He can and will work this out for you. It just might not be the way you envisioned it. I also agree with the poster that said this might be a time for you to draw near to the Lord in a new way and see Him as your Husband since your earthly husband is neglecting you. Although it is a very hard and lonely time for you, it shouldnt be because you have Him there. If your earthly husband neglects you, then consider it more time for you and the Lord. You dont have to cater to all his needs and have more time for you and the Lord. Your husband will see in time that you have changed and will want you again the way you want him to want you. You can get a relationship with the Lord going so strongly that your husband will wonder what on earth is happening and will be drawn to that. YOu will draw him in by your godliness..it says it in the bible. I will be praying for you.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/18/2008 7:58:43 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10366
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
quote:
No intimacy on any level; spiritual, emotional, intellectual...physical.
Because of this statement I would assume that he is indeed in sin. Just because one can't perform because of age in the same way they used to in younger years doesn't mean that ALL physical intimacy has to stop. Nor should intimacy stop on all the other levels...emotional, spiritual and intellectual. This man is sinning against God and against his wife.
quote:
10 years ago started the 'distancing'.
Plus this started 10 years ago.
And we know that we are hearing only ONE side of this story. I refuse to pass judgment based on that.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/18/2008 8:33:10 AM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
And we know that we are hearing only ONE side of this story. I refuse to pass judgment based on that.
He's got to be feeling just as much hurt and frustration (likely more). There's got to be so much more to it! But she desperately needs him to open up to her about it and he needs to be looking for answers too. I'm praying the Holy Spirit will break through everything he's put up that's keeping him from being able to do that.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/18/2008 10:39:51 AM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
The bottom line - I need physical touch! I need my husband to want me. This is not a wrong or sinful 'feeling'. This is infact how God created me...created all of us. And he created the man to lead in this and to 'unite with his wife'. How do you respect someone who neglects you? Not just that, how does a wife who has asked for it, continue to respect and honor her husband who adbandons that for 2.3 years!!!!!!!! My life can be fruitful in many ways. I'm not sitting around having a pity party for myself. By the strength of the Holy Spirit I 'keep on'....but please don't tell me that my life can be full married to a man who won't make love too me. This is much like living with a disability -- people need to see, but not all people can, and God's not going to heal them all this side of heaven. It's not fair. It's terribly unfair... but you just might have to live with your unmet physical needs the same way a blind person lives without sight. It's not the way it's meant to be, but it is the way it really is.
The reality is that this is your husband's decision, and he's not going to touch you or make love to you unless or until he feels like it. And that might mean never. He's allowed to be a disobedient, sinful, hurtful, rebellious man. I was under the impression that you wanted to know how to be a godly woman, a believer, a sanctified saint in the face of your relational adversity. I too wish it wasn't there for you, and I think he needs to see the consequences of his actions (through Church discipline and/or separation), an I feel bad that it is you suffering the results of someone else's stubborn unrepentant choices... but...
Your life can be full without sexual satisfaction. Lots of unmarried people lead rich full lives. Lots of widows do too, as well as those who are separated for years by work, or military service, or jail. Even divorced people have rich full lives without sex. It's not like you don't feel the lack, it's just that life is so much more than what goes on in the body.
How do you respect him? Well, maybe in your life you respect your father? (If not, sorry for the can of worms, maybe you respect a pastor or a boss or some other male person?) You don't have any sexual feelings to respect someone. If you did live with a roommate, male or female, you would know how to treat them with interpersonal respect. You treat all your acquaintances and colleagues with respect (even though you have no idea how they are stacking up with their responsibilities to their spouses or families). Respecting him does not mean deferring to him, except to the degree that you meld your preferences in a sort-of egalitarian way with all persons that you respect, and you go their way when you can tell it's really important to them.
Just because you happen to know that he is sinning, and his sin happens to be against you, doesn't mean that he is not entitled to receive basic interpersonal respect from you, as you said, civility. His sin makes you hurt and angry, but in your anger do not sin. It's not your job to make sure he pays for his wrongs.
If the pain is too great and you need to separate, do so. It is not a sin to live apart from a spouse when the covenant is in a broken state... but maybe if you had a different perspective, it would hurt, but you wouldn't feel the anger and resentment, and then you might be able to manage to rebuild. I don't know. The 1 Peter passage is good advice to women who's marriages were much more difficult than yours.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/19/2008 3:00:58 AM
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attheend
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/15/2008
Status: offline
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Wow you all have much to say. I thank you for your opinions.
I am showing respect to this man just as I do any person. I am not bad mouthing him or saying mean things or calling names. I have been honest and sometimes the truth hurts. I've tried to speak with truth AND grace.
There are of course 2 sides to every story, but tell you I have been 100% honest here. I don't kow any of you, I have nothing to lose so why not disclose it all? Here's his side, from my side:
"Tell me what I can do to show you I love you". So I gave him a list of ~8 things that we had talked about 14 months ago at counseling - things that were important to me (some not even having to do directly with the 2 of us, but with our children. Like, take our 15 year old son out to breakfast, or lunch once a month.) He said, "Don't give me a list. Tell me ONE thing I can do." I said, "TALK TO ME about these important issues" (the issues which brought us to counseling in the first place. The points brought up in the 5 letters and the hours of together-counseling.) I told him ONE thing - just like he asked (plus he took the list) This was on August 26th. He hasn't talked to me about those important things. He hasn't done anything on the list.
I admit I'm not always right. I'm a sinner who is sometimes stubborn and the anger and resentment has built walls. I'm working on that and I've told him that. (but no discussion)
I know I could initiate things. But this is the pattern of our whole life - and it is time for him to be a man. It's not like the point of him initiating hasn't been brought up. EVERYTHING has been addressed. PLUS he asked me "WHAT CAN I DO?"...I told him...and still, when his wife who he claims to love, gives him the answer...he still doesn't act. Even when she suggests separation...he doesn't see this as urgent.
IMO comparing this to a disability isn't a valid comparison. We are NOT disabled. He is NOT UNable to speak or act or touch or think. He is making choices to not do things he has the ability to do. If my husband was in an accident and was paralyzed, I would care for him and stay with him. I would have to live without sex because that would be impossible. But he is not paralyzed.
I am trying to lean on God. I am wrestling with Him, too. I fasted and prayed this past weekend - went away for solitude and silence and prayer. I did not get any clear word - either way.
We are estranged in our own home. I JUST DO NOT LOVE HIM as a spouse should love. It has just been too long.
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/19/2008 6:25:27 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 2060
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: attheend
IMO comparing this to a disability isn't a valid comparison. We are NOT disabled. He is NOT UNable to speak or act or touch or think. He is making choices to not do things he has the ability to do. If my husband was in an accident and was paralyzed, I would care for him and stay with him. I would have to live without sex because that would be impossible. But he is not paralyzed.
Romans 7:14.We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15.I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16.And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17.As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18.I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19.For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20.Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21.So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
pbaribeault's analogy is a good one, I think. As someone who has struggled with depression but HATES the "chemical imbalance" cop out (that's a whole other heated thread, just an example), struggles in our hearts and spirits are so real and can be so debilitating. I'm not ruling out a physical issue in your dh but, even if I could, it could still be a sort of "disability". And it wouldn't be a cop out at all to look at it this way - if he used it as one it could be because there's plenty God expects us to do about what attacks our minds and hearts and invades our spirits. But those are very hard steps to take! Sin is a trap. Ask the Lord to give you compassion and grace for your husband (much like God has given you) and to teach you how to pray to bring revelation that will set him (and you) free. He may not have a physical injury (that you can see anyway) but he's obviously in desperate need of spiritual or emotional rehabilitation - and Satan may only be using your frustrations to make things worse. Ultimately, it will be his decision whether to humble himself and let God move in his life, but how can you give up on your husband and your family without doing that serious spiritual warfare at least long enough to give him the chance to join you. If you give him some hope, I really think he will and this can completely turn around!
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RE: even if he doesn't touch you? - 11/19/2008 2:16:22 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1096
Joined: 4/29/2005
Status: online
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quote:
IMO comparing this to a disability isn't a valid comparison. We are NOT disabled. He is NOT UNable to speak or act or touch or think. He is making choices to not do things he has the ability to do. If my husband was in an accident and was paralyzed, I would care for him and stay with him. I would have to live without sex because that would be impossible. But he is not paralyzed.
I'm not saying that a dyfunctional relationship is like a disability for both of you, as if the desired actions are impossible. He's not disabled. He could fix it if he wanted to... but you can't.
In my attempted illustration, you have the "disability" -- the thing you can't fix, that's not working for you, that makes your life very difficult, but you'll ha | | |
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