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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/15/2008 9:27:20 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17768
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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It looks like this protest also happened in Boston, Seattle and in other places too:
Across nation, gay advocates protest marriage ban
BOSTON (AP) — Gay rights supporters waving rainbow colors marched, chanted and danced in cities coast to coast Saturday to protest the vote that banned gay marriage in California and to urge supporters not to quit the fight for the right to wed.
Crowds gathered near public buildings in cities large and small, including Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and Fargo, to vent their frustrations, celebrate gay relationships and renew calls for change.
"Civil marriages are a civil right, and we're going to keep fighting until we get the rights we deserve as American citizens," Karen Amico said in Philadelphia, holding up a sign reading "Don't Spread H8".
"We are the American family, we live next door to you, we teach your children, we take care of your elderly," said Heather Baker a special education teacher from Boston who addressed the crowd at Boston's City Hall Plaza. "We need equal rights across the country."
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/16/2008 2:40:18 AM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
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By the way, I found this youtube video and it's helped me describe why I feel prop 8 should be standardized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR1JViE-LWQ
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Come and discover Japan's spirituality, with me!
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/16/2008 7:52:32 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
It looks like this protest also happened in Boston, Seattle and in other places too:
Across nation, gay advocates protest marriage ban
BOSTON (AP) — Gay rights supporters waving rainbow colors marched, chanted and danced in cities coast to coast Saturday to protest the vote that banned gay marriage in California and to urge supporters not to quit the fight for the right to wed.
Crowds gathered near public buildings in cities large and small, including Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and Fargo, to vent their frustrations, celebrate gay relationships and renew calls for change.
"Civil marriages are a civil right, and we're going to keep fighting until we get the rights we deserve as American citizens," Karen Amico said in Philadelphia, holding up a sign reading "Don't Spread H8".
"We are the American family, we live next door to you, we teach your children, we take care of your elderly," said Heather Baker a special education teacher from Boston who addressed the crowd at Boston's City Hall Plaza. "We need equal rights across the country."
Greetings
Here is a kicker for ya
http://www.onenewsnow.com/vidPlayer.aspx?videoId=8956
L.A. mayor says his Jesus would support homosexual rights
Now they calling Jesus a homosexual  and they promise a fight all the way to the White House
But doesnt the Bible say
Joh 18:36 - Show Context
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/16/2008 8:03:28 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
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Cute. "Thou shalt not discriminate."
I actually agreed with most of what he said. The Constitution protecting liberties. Starting up a conversation where you are.
Trying to speak for Jesus on the issue of supporting homosexuality on the basis that you shouldn't discriminate lacks substance on a moral ground. Jesus was 1. not a politician and 2. he would have added: "I love you. Now go and sin no more."
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Come and discover Japan's spirituality, with me!
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/16/2008 8:38:08 PM
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aslouie
Posts: 710
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Los Angeles, CA.
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Just this Sunday morning (when I was awaiting church services), I was chatting with one of my friends there, commenting on the seemingly nation-wide protests over Prop 8. Her comments is that because of is sporadic, disorganized, sometimes even over-emotional state, all it does is invite backlash from the rest of the country, given there's no centralized sense of outreach/strategy to truly win over supporters of the same-sex marriage cause.
And perhaps to best illustrate the counter-productive nature of these protests, check out the link below:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,449024,00.html
I've seen a similar article, possibly on Yahoo! News, but this is the most available I can find off of its search engine. Personally, I'm thinking that by boycotting the very Mormon state that just so happens to host the very liberal-chic, indie film festival will be winning even less converts to this particular, LGBT cause--and I believe it's fairly common knowledge to say that the Sundance Film Festival have always been a pivotal bastion of showcasing gay (political) cinema, so by boycotting Park City, UT, doesn't that qualify as (to quote a certain, Nine Inch Nails song) biting the hand that feeds you? Part of me think it's a bit more like the proverbial, cutting-one's-nose-to-spite-someone's-face scenario...
_____________________________
With fame I became more and more stupid, which of course is a very common phenomenon.
--Albert Einstein
That's hot.
--Paris Hilton
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/16/2008 9:50:21 PM
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henny
Posts: 1167
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
The biggest thing that separates Christians from GLBT's, is identification. GLBT's define themselves as simply that. To themselves they are homosexuals. It is how they present themselves to the world.
I don't think this is true in most cases. For most homosexuals it's just one aspect of their lives, they are not just "homosexuals" nor is that identification the end all be all of their existence. Homosexuals do identify more openly as "homosexuals," but there's many practical reasons for this and I don't think it speaks to what degree sex is important in their lives at all (in fact, I suspect certain evangelicals would be more obsessed with the "homosexual" aspect of gay person's identity, than the gay person him/herself would be, as many just can't seem to get beyond that. Announce you're gay, and I think many -but not all- evangelicals will ONLY see that in you, and nothing else). But in my experience, most homosexuals will not introduce themselves as such unless the situation specifically calls for it for some reason.
quote:
Now, you would never hear me identify myself as a heterosexual.
Why would you have to? Heterosexuality is assumed in most contexts in our society, which means that there are very few contexts in which heterosexuals need to specifically identify themselves as heterosexuals. The vast majority of people are heterosexual, thus if you want to meet other heterosexuals for dating purposes, you really don't have to announce to the world that you are heterosexual, or go to places specifically for heterosexuals to meet other people like you. However, if a homosexual wishes to date he/she is going to have to have to find some way of locating other people like themselves, and identification is the easiest way of doing this. If gay people didn't identify as gay, I don't see how they could ever get on with the practical necessity of finding other gay people to date. If the tables were turned, and heterosexuals only made up roughly 3-5% of the population, I imagine they would have to identify more strongly as "straight" simply for the practical purpose of meeting other people like them (imagine, for example, the difficulty of a heterosexual trying to find a date in a gay bar, multiply that by 100, and you might get some insight into how homosexuals feel every day of their lives). It's the same with anything else when it comes to matters of taste. If knitting enthusiasts want to meet other knitting enthusiasts, or baseball enthusiasts want to meet other baseball enthusiast (etc, etc), there is going to first have to be some level of identification with the enthusiasm if one is to find people that share your interests.
There's other reasons for this as well, however, and it does include a political aspect (i.e. there was a time in our country and history when gay people were unfairly discriminated against, locked up, or even murdered, and thus "identification" also had a political component to it in that these things could never have been fought against had gay people not united around a common identifying trait. I do think, however, that the birthing pains of any movement like this will ultimately include, at the end, throwing off the political connotations of the identifying trait that the group originally rallied around. I think we're beginning to see this in certain areas, but when it comes to homosexuality, it's a long way off yet), but again even the political aspect of identifying as "gay" speaks to underlying practical necessities more than it does to an infatuation or obsession with sex. In fact, I think the biggest reason why homosexuals have to identify more strongly as such is because society at large (including especially evangelical Christians), not themselves, are completely obsessed with homosexuality to a near neurotic degree (but that's another issue). If everyone else wasn't so hung up on it, I don't think there would be as much of an urgency for homosexuals to be so vocal about it.
No doubt there are probably many homosexuals who are obsessed with sex and who make sex the end all and be all of their existence, but there are many heterosexuals who do this as well. I don't think, however, that merely identifying as gay in itself speaks to the level of importance that sex or homosexuality has to that individual's life.
_____________________________
Hell is other Christians.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 1:51:14 AM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henny
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
The biggest thing that separates Christians from GLBT's, is identification. GLBT's define themselves as simply that. To themselves they are homosexuals. It is how they present themselves to the world.
I don't think this is true in most cases. For most homosexuals it's just one aspect of their lives, they are not just "homosexuals" nor is that identification the end all be all of their existence. Homosexuals do identify more openly as "homosexuals," but there's many practical reasons for this and I don't think it speaks to what degree sex is important in their lives at all (in fact, I suspect certain evangelicals would be more obsessed with the "homosexual" aspect of gay person's identity, than the gay person him/herself would be, as many just can't seem to get beyond that. Announce you're gay, and I think many -but not all- evangelicals will ONLY see that in you, and nothing else). But in my experience, most homosexuals will not introduce themselves as such unless the situation specifically calls for it for some reason.
You are correct and that is my fault for over generalizing. I was going based off my own experiences (and I have quite a few) and in that context, I do believe it is the majority of GLBT's I meet. It certainly is true for my Uncle....errrr...Aunt. Got a sex change. I still consider him to be a him as that is how God made him. It pains me to see him as he is. But to say that applies to all GLBT's is false and I apologize.
To your point, I agree largely with the belief that Christians identify homosexuals more as homosexuals then they do as God sees them. Which makes the situation much, much sadder then it already is. There is a large degree of fear still, for many, to identify as a homosexual. But it begins to consume their thoughts (again, only going off what I know through experience). Like any other thing in life, like your job or your hobbies, you begin to identify yourself with that thing. You put on your proverbial hat and wear it with you. When it is God's desire to see you identified as His, always. This is a standard though that few, if anyone ever reaches. But in my opinion, dropping the label as simply being a homosexual is a good first step and as you pointed out, Christians are a large factor in this.
quote:
quote:
Now, you would never hear me identify myself as a heterosexual.
Why would you have to? Heterosexuality is assumed in most contexts in our society, which means that there are very few contexts in which heterosexuals need to specifically identify themselves as heterosexuals. The vast majority of people are heterosexual, thus if you want to meet other heterosexuals for dating purposes, you really don't have to announce to the world that you are heterosexual, or go to places specifically for heterosexuals to meet other people like you. However, if a homosexual wishes to date he/she is going to have to have to find some way of locating other people like themselves, and identification is the easiest way of doing this. If gay people didn't identify as gay, I don't see how they could ever get on with the practical necessity of finding other gay people to date. If the tables were turned, and heterosexuals only made up roughly 3-5% of the population, I imagine they would have to identify more strongly as "straight" simply for the practical purpose of meeting other people like them (imagine, for example, the difficulty of a heterosexual trying to find a date in a gay bar, multiply that by 100, and you might get some insight into how homosexuals feel every day of their lives). It's the same with anything else when it comes to matters of taste. If knitting enthusiasts want to meet other knitting enthusiasts, or baseball enthusiasts want to meet other baseball enthusiast (etc, etc), there is going to first have to be some level of identification with the enthusiasm if one is to find people that share your interests.
There's other reasons for this as well, however, and it does include a political aspect (i.e. there was a time in our country and history when gay people were unfairly discriminated against, locked up, or even murdered, and thus "identification" also had a political component to it in that these things could never have been fought against had gay people not united around a common identifying trait. I do think, however, that the birthing pains of any movement like this will ultimately include, at the end, throwing off the political connotations of the identifying trait that the group originally rallied around. I think we're beginning to see this in certain areas, but when it comes to homosexuality, it's a long way off yet), but again even the political aspect of identifying as "gay" speaks to underlying practical necessities more than it does to an infatuation or obsession with sex. In fact, I think the biggest reason why homosexuals have to identify more strongly as such is because society at large (including especially evangelical Christians), not themselves, are completely obsessed with homosexuality to a near neurotic degree (but that's another issue). If everyone else wasn't so hung up on it, I don't think there would be as much of an urgency for homosexuals to be so vocal about it.
No doubt there are probably many homosexuals who are obsessed with sex and who make sex the end all and be all of their existence, but there are many heterosexuals who do this as well. I don't think, however, that merely identifying as gay in itself speaks to the level of importance that sex or homosexuality has to that individual's life.
That was a very well thought out and I enjoy gaining your perspective!
As I said earlier, God asks us to identify only as His. To me, it's like Jesus' idea of turning the other cheek. It's great and will benefit you in the long haul but it's simply a principle that is unattainable for so many. Personally, I will always put on a "martial arts" hat, my "missionary's" hat and my "home church" uniform (which is one I'm REALLY trying to get rid of :/).
It's been proven time and again that when people unite under a banner you become much stronger then your were separately. This is true for Christians and the GLBTs. I certainly don't blame them at all for identifying themselves as such to strengthen their positions of where they stand. I do the same thing in politics and economics. I talk to like minded people and search them out through the internet. To clarify, I wasn't attempting to say that homosexuals do anything different from what others do when placed in a group. They are people who simply need love and they have not been getting it from enough people, outside of their group.
Again, thank you for your perspective! :D
_____________________________
http://www.ichibanblog.net
Come and discover Japan's spirituality, with me!
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 2:42:53 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
To your point, I agree largely with the belief that Christians identify homosexuals more as homosexuals then they do as God sees them. Which makes the situation much, much sadder then it already is. There is a large degree of fear still, for many, to identify as a homosexual. But it begins to consume their thoughts (again, only going off what I know through experience). Like any other thing in life, like your job or your hobbies, you begin to identify yourself with that thing. You put on your proverbial hat and wear it with you. When it is God's desire to see you identified as His, always. This is a standard though that few, if anyone ever reaches. But in my opinion, dropping the label as simply being a homosexual is a good first step and as you pointed out, Christians are a large factor in this.
Having lived in Northern California all my life I find most homosexuals wear their choice like a badge of honor and I have seen some call out other homosexuals for being quiet and private about their choice...
quote:
If everyone else wasn't so hung up on it, I don't think there would be as much of an urgency for homosexuals to be so vocal about it.
They are vocal because there is a desire to legitimize their behavior...
quote:
They are people who simply need love and they have not been getting it from enough people, outside of their group.
What they are not getting from the outside is legitimacy... They don't want love from Christians, they want absolute acceptance of their behavior... Anything less is called hate..
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 3:08:56 AM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Having lived in Northern California all my life I find most homosexuals wear their choice like a badge of honor and I have seen some call out other homosexuals for being quiet and private about their choice...
I live in So. Cal. Each person is different, of course and for many who are vocal about their homosexuality, they do wear it with honor. There are still many, however, who practice in the sin and don't declare it out of shame. And it would make sense for the vocal ones to admonish those who are silent...don't we do the same things as Christians?
quote:
They are vocal because there is a desire to legitimize their behavior...
I would urge you to join me in trying not to apply absolutes to the situation. I would argue and believe the majority are vocal because they don't want to stand alone against a society that has been historically against them.
quote:
What they are not getting from the outside is legitimacy... They don't want love from Christians, they want absolute acceptance of their behavior... Anything less is called hate..
Way to buy into the media hype.
Isn't acceptance a form of love? To have their behavior accepted and by default their lifestyle legitimized, wouldn't that confirm that there are people who care for them? Who empathize with them? I am not suggesting we love them to make them think it is OK to practice homosexuality, I am suggesting we love them as Jesus commanded us to so that they might come to know Jesus. What's the point of turning them away from a homosexual lifestyle unless they come to Christianity. Being heterosexual won't save them: being a follower of Christ will. And being a follower of Christ comes the acceptance that His Word is correct and that homosexuality is not OK.
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http://www.ichibanblog.net
Come and discover Japan's spirituality, with me!
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 7:40:13 AM
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Veritas
Posts: 526
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Having lived in Northern California all my life I find most homosexuals wear their choice like a badge of honor and I have seen some call out other homosexuals for being quiet and private about their choice...
Most homosexuals that you've seen are vocal. That's because you don't see much of the ones that are not vocal.
quote:
They are vocal because there is a desire to legitimize their behavior...
They are vocal because they are discriminated against, persecuted, and denied equal rights.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 8:52:18 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
Cute. "Thou shalt not discriminate."
I actually agreed with most of what he said. The Constitution protecting liberties. Starting up a conversation where you are.
Trying to speak for Jesus on the issue of supporting homosexuality on the basis that you shouldn't discriminate lacks substance on a moral ground.
Jesus was 1. not a politician and
2. he would have added: "I love you. Now go and sin no more."
Greetings
How about this… Jesus keeps covenant and the constitution that was founded is a covenant
…..Better yet…… I just received an email from our State Senator... here Ill post it and I will highlight the add in
Thank you for contacting me to express your support of the Federal Marriage Act of 2008. Your opinion is very important to me, and I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you on this vital issue.
The Federal Marriage Act of 2008 defines marriage as "the union of a man and a woman" for purposes of federal law. This will be the first time that federal law has defined what constitutes a "marriage." Since the founding of this nation, family law has been the domain of the states.
There are serious problems with the Federal Marriage Act of 2008. First, the legislation discriminates against many Americans who would otherwise seek a same-sex marriage. It says that only some people are entitled to enjoy the benefits of "marriage," such as only heterosexual Americans. This legislation affects the rights that accompany marriage and could also be used to overturn domestic partnership and common law benefits given to unmarried couples. Some of these rights and benefits include the right to equal protection under the law, ability to make medical decisions on behalf of a partner, the right to take sick leave to care for an ailing partner, receiving social security survivor benefits, the ability to visit one's partner in a hospital, and the right to make burial decisions for a significant other.
Our Constitution guarantees every citizen the right to equal protection and due process of law.
Discrimination on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or gender identity is a direct affront to the fundamental values of freedom and personal choice upon which our nation was founded. I simply cannot support any piece of federal legislation that may undermine those values by institutionalizing any form of discrimination.
The Good Senator (Democrat) says
Discrimination on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or gender identity is a direct affront to the fundamental values of freedom and personal choice upon which our nation was founded.
I am having a problem looking at the covenant in the constitution and trying to find where Christian men wrote provisions for gender identity
???? 
Now let’s toss in 1 or 2 scriptures… that defines what our Christian founders were speaking of
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that “all men” are created equal, that they are endowed, (Male and Female) “”by their Creator,”””
Ge 1:27 - Show Context
So God created (our- their creator) man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; “male …and… female he created them.”
One would think that If God made homosexuals then that would have been the prime scripture to make that point…. “in the image of God”… he created him; “male …and… female ….“or” …homosexual…. he created “them.”
That’s an oxymoron in the first place.
Now when we take a peek at what the Senator mentioned that
Discrimination on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation,
That part sounds like what God had created…“male and female he created “them.” Therefore there seems to be no difference in equality… on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, “sexual orientation. = male and female he created “them.”
And then goes on to say
Discrimination on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or gender identity is a direct affront to the fundamental values of freedom “and”…. personal choice…. upon which our nation was founded.
Where is personal choice that in the foundation... being it was said the nation was founded on it?
The founding of this nation according to the constitution is a no brainer;
No where is there found that our nation was founded a personal choice for the Provisions for gender identity …..Because it is written in the foundation as truths that are to be self-evident:
….that “all men” are created equal, and that they are endowed, (Male and Female) “”by their Creator,”””.
It is defined right in the beginning ….exactly what the nation was not founded on…… as truths to be self-evident:
….in that God did not create homosexuals in the image of God or mankind.
We hold “these truths to be self-evident:”= no brainer
….. That “all men” are created equal …..that they are “endowed, (Male and Female) “”by their Creator,”””
“endowed = to provide somebody or something with desirable qualities, abilities, or characteristics for procreation, which would be for the pursuit of life…
Ge 2:18 - Show Context
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an “help meet”… for him”
. = “endowed = to provide somebody or something with “desirable” qualities, abilities, or “characteristics”
......Again….We hold “these truths”…. to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by “their” Creator =(Male and Female)
With certain unalienable Rights, that… “among these” =(truths that are to be self-evident = (Males and Females) ..”are” ……”Life” =procreation>..... Liberty> and the pursuit of Happiness.
So there was no need to define marriage in the beginning because those truths are self-evident.
And It’s very doubtfully the founders sought “sin”… as a means to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness… because there are NO examples of that in the Bible; where it is seen; that sin is a means to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness.
They… the founders… on which THE nation was founded… never took away the choice to sin between a man and women as a means of a personal choice; and is why they were against a State religion.
And in like manner the founders never intended personal choice to be a rule of law to sin in the nation; because that is the Biblical truth in which the Christian founders founded the constitution on.
.. Because those truths…are self-evident.... that God Himself did not stop Adam in the beginning.
I am going to send this to him with a promise he will not have my vote come the next election until he reads the constitution for himself…
And stops the contributions made by his opinions and his parties agendas which are in violation of the general welfare of the country…also....in which this nation was founded on.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 9:28:43 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
They are vocal because they are discriminated against, persecuted, and denied equal rights.
Please, a people who attack churches and little old ladies aren't being 'persecuted'.
The fact is these people regularly mount well funded campaigns to outlaw commonly accepted social mores either through legislation or judicial fiat. They are bullies and thugs, and their tactics invite disdain.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 9:38:58 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Having lived in Northern California all my life I find most homosexuals wear their choice like a badge of honor and I have seen some call out other homosexuals for being quiet and private about their choice...
Most homosexuals that you've seen are vocal. That's because you don't see much of the ones that are not vocal.
quote:
They are vocal because there is a desire to legitimize their behavior...
They are vocal because they are discriminated against, persecuted, and denied equal rights.
Seriously? Where's the discrimination? Where's the persecution? They can vote, right? They can sit down in the same restaurants with other people right? They can drink from the same water fountains, right?
I don't see anybody threatening to firebomb homosexuals homes and places of worship. I don't see anyone protesting outside homosexual homes and places of worship or disrupting them.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 10:57:46 AM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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I think the root of the problem is that the GLBT community wants the Christian Church to accept them without requiring repentance. The Church cannot do that and remain the Church. That is the problem I have with some of the earlier posts about letting a homosexual work in a Church nursery... or an adulterer... they must be repentant, not in open sin. Even in repentance I don't think every place of service in a Church is appropriate for every person. We must use a little bit of commmon sense. I have been through times in my life, as a Christian, when I would not even consider taking a place of service in the Church because of an on going struggle... I cannot imagine that a person who is totally unrepentant is a Christian at all and that is the rub... why would a homosexual be in the Church at all? Isn't repentance still required? Wouldn't becoming a Christian make one realize that sexual sin is wrong and wouldn't they then say, "I used to be a homosexual" or "I used to live in adultery" or "I used to be a theif" ? I realize we all have our different "bents" toward different temptations but that does not make them OK. We all have to overcome whatever it is that our flesh is bent toward, we have to deny our self. take up our cross, an follow Him. It seem's to me that the GLBT community wants to follow Him without denying themselves and without taking up their cross, (in order to nail their flesh to it). They want the Church to accept them that way with no self denial and no cross. It is a problem because there is no repentance and they call it "hate" if you point of that they need to repent.
The Church always accepts repentant sinners. We all may have times when a Christian will struggle with some sin but struggle is the key word. From what I can tell there is absolutely no struggle against sexual sin among the GLBT community. They want to legitimize sexual perversion and that... is the problem. It is not that the Church discriminates against them and not against adulterers. The Church requires repentance of sin, not perfection, but repentance. A Christian may sin but a Christian will hate it and mourn over it. It may be an ongoing struggle unitl grace is understood but a Christian's sin should never be excused by the Christian.
We don't say. "I am an adulterer, (or pedophile or murderer or a sensual person or any other common sin) God made me this way, there is nothing wrong with it, you must accept me this way".
The Church cannot control the state and I expect that eventually the courts are going to do away with "prop8" and then homosexual marriage is going to become some sort of federal right and Churches are going to be required to perform marriages or lose their tax exempt status... at which point any true Church will refuse because She serves the Lord and is, indeed, married to Him. Also, if it is God that "makes the two become one flesh", there will never really be a homosexual marriage. If the Church loses Her tax exempt status over this we must receive it with joy and continue to serve the Lord. A tax exempt status is not worth anything if it comes at the cost of moral compromise and betrayal of the word of God. Of course I am sure that the ACLJ will fight it for us.
Julien
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"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 11:30:06 AM
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everythingat
Posts: 272
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
They are vocal because they are discriminated against, persecuted, and denied equal rights.
Please, a people who attack churches and little old ladies aren't being 'persecuted'.
The fact is these people regularly mount well funded campaigns to outlaw commonly accepted social mores either through legislation or judicial fiat. They are bullies and thugs, and their tactics invite disdain.
He was probably talking about the murders/attacks of gay rights activists. Which has happened quite frequently over the past thirty years or so.
henny's post was great. It's a shame that posts like that get overshadowed by someone saying a spontaneous sentence that can be easily disagreed with.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 1:34:46 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 869
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henny
If gay people didn't identify as gay, I don't see how they could ever get on with the practical necessity of finding other gay people to date. If the tables were turned, and heterosexuals only made up roughly 3-5% of the population,
Um , sorry to burst your fallacious analogy bubble, but if 3-5% of the population was heterosexuals, there would be no population. If there are heterosexuals, they will never be 3-5% of population.
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ORIGINAL: henny
There's other reasons for this as well, however, and it does include a political aspect (i.e. there was a time in our country and history when gay people were unfairly discriminated against,
Why are you saying "gay people" as if it is inherrent and natural? It term is defined by its behavior ONLY. They are people with SSA. I thought that's what they were supposed to be referred on here as.
Secondly , how can someone be discriminated against because of behavior?
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ORIGINAL: henny
In fact, I think the biggest reason why homosexuals have to identify more strongly as such is because society at large (including especially evangelical Christians), not themselves, are completely obsessed with homosexuality to a near neurotic degree (but that's another issue). If everyone else wasn't so hung up on it, I don't think there would be as much of an urgency for homosexuals to be so vocal about it.
Are you insinuating the Bible as God's word was using too strong of language when it called the act it an "abomination"? I don't recall the Bible saying gay people were an abomination.
Why are you unable to differentiate this?
_____________________________
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 1:42:07 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 869
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Having lived in Northern California all my life I find most homosexuals wear their choice like a badge of honor and I have seen some call out other homosexuals for being quiet and private about their choice...
I live in So. Cal. Each person is different, of course and for many who are vocal about their homosexuality, they do wear it with honor. There are still many, however, who practice in the sin and don't declare it out of shame. And it would make sense for the vocal ones to admonish those who are silent...don't we do the same things as Christians?
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They are vocal because there is a desire to legitimize their behavior...
I would urge you to join me in trying not to apply absolutes to the situation. I would argue and believe the majority are vocal because they don't want to stand alone against a society that has been historically against them.
Not to apply absolutes is to do the opposite of what the Bible does, applies absolutes.
Your phrase "against them" is void of any meaning because it lacks specifics.
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ORIGINAL: Ichiban
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What they are not getting from the outside is legitimacy... They don't want love from Christians, they want absolute acceptance of their behavior... Anything less is called hate..
Way to buy into the media hype.
Isn't acceptance a form of love? To have their behavior accepted and by default their lifestyle legitimized, wouldn't that confirm that there are people who care for them? Who empathize with them? I am not suggesting we love them to make them think it is OK to practice homosexuality, I am suggesting we love them as Jesus commanded us to so that they might come to know Jesus. What's the point of turning them away from a homosexual lifestyle unless they come to Christianity. Being heterosexual won't save them: being a follower of Christ will. And being a follower of Christ comes the acceptance that His Word is correct and that homosexuality is not OK.
Um, last time I checked , the media hype was promoting this behavior as acceptable.
Maybe your point would be better made if you gave an example of Jesus accepting sinners as legitimate without requring them to turn from their sin.
Jesus, standing up, saw her and said, "Woman, where are your accusers? Did no one condemn you?"
She said, "No one, Lord."
Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
Telling a homosexual to not to sin anymore is biblical. It doesn't matter if you meet them on the street or helping out in an AIDS shelter. God's truth is absolute.
_____________________________
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 1:50:17 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 869
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
Like any other thing in life, like your job or your hobbies, you begin to identify yourself with that thing.
Homosexuality is NOTHING like a hobby.
People with a hobby or even a job are identified by places, associations, things, buildings, skills.
This comparison is totally illegitimate. A much more accurate analogy of Homosexuality is sex with animals or sex with children. Curious how you didn't use those examples.
Homosexuality is ONLY defined by the behavioral act.
_____________________________
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 1:59:53 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
Are you insinuating the Bible as God's word was using too strong of language when it called the act it an "abomination"? I don't recall the Bible saying gay people were an abomination.
Why are you unable to differentiate this?
I've already had someone mistake that I said the act wasn't an abomination when all I had said was the person who practices homosexuality isn't an abomination. That said, I don't believe he was accusing the Bible of bring too harsh. In fact, he wasn't even talking about the Word, here. He said that if Christians got less hung up the fact that people practice homosexuality, but instead would simply focus on the fact that they need saving then there wouldn't be this huge chasm between us and them.
Behavior has always been discriminated against. Christians have gone through persecution the world over for behaving in a matter becoming or being of a Christian. And it's quite common to identify someone who practices or believes in something. I'm called a Libertarian (even though I'm not really) or a martial artist. These are things I choose to do yet I am referred to by these things in different settings.
Henry was empathizing with gays so that I would be less absolute about their actions. To take this statistics literally like you did was a somewhat pointless exercise since the point was to illustrate that GLBT's are defensive because they are so deep in the minority.
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http://www.ichibanblog.net
Come and discover Japan's spirituality, with me!
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 2:05:07 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1756
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: online
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He said that Christians get less hung up the fact that people practice homosexuality and simply focus on the fact that they need saving then there wouldn't be this huge chasm between us and them.
While they need saving, if they hang on to behavior, are they saved? It seems to come across as if you are saying we need to open our social clubs, known by their crosses, and accept them into membership with no requirement for adhering to the Word that forms the club.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 2:10:52 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
Not to apply absolutes is to do the opposite of what the Bible does, applies absolutes.
Your phrase "against them" is void of any meaning because it lacks specifics.
Indeed the Bible is absolute, but I am trying to avoid stereotypical dialogs that involve me saying: "All gay people do this:" To apply it the other way around, if someone sees a KKK person burning a black home, I wouldn't want someone to say: "All Christians do that."
When it comes to right and wrong, absolutely be absolute (that was odd saying aloud). When it comes to people, apply more understanding and patience.
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Um, last time I checked , the media hype was promoting this behavior as acceptable.
Maybe your point would be better made if you gave an example of Jesus accepting sinners as legitimate without requring them to turn from their sin.
Jesus, standing up, saw her and said, "Woman, where are your accusers? Did no one condemn you?"
She said, "No one, Lord."
Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
Telling a homosexual to not to sin anymore is biblical. It doesn't matter if you meet them on the street or helping out in an AIDS shelter. God's truth is absolute.
The media hype I was referring to was that all gays are angry people. Heck, by the media's coverage the past week you would think those who support gay marriage would be in the majority just because there have been so many protests.
Yes, but the truth came after the expression of grace, mercy and love. I've been trying to say it is love WITH truth that will save these people. The goal for me is not to make them not practice homosexuality anymore: It is to see them become followers of Christ. So why would I approach them any differently then anyone else? I'll bring the truth with me, always but is the Spirit with me if I don't follow the truth by loving others the same way Jesus did?
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