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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/28/2008 4:15:49 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4409
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The whole system of applying to particular saints with particular requests, i.e., Antony of Padua for lost items, is really a survival of and a mimicry of polytheism.
I think my newest comment is germaine to this conversation and I think is related to this. I learned over the weekend that Saint Nicholas of Myra (also known as Saint Nicholas of Bari and Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker) is the patron saint of prostitutes and thieves, among other things. Now why in the world would the Catholic church have such a thing and what exactly would you pray to this guy for?
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/29/2008 3:32:57 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The whole system of applying to particular saints with particular requests, i.e., Antony of Padua for lost items, is really a survival of and a mimicry of polytheism.
I think my newest comment is germaine to this conversation and I think is related to this. I learned over the weekend that Saint Nicholas of Myra (also known as Saint Nicholas of Bari and Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker) is the patron saint of prostitutes and thieves, among other things. Now why in the world would the Catholic church have such a thing and what exactly would you pray to this guy for?
Probably when 'twas the night before Christmas... you might pray to find a really hot gift in one of those stockings you hung so carefully...lol
Then again, it gets really serious when they start believing that Nicholas raised people from the dead and even go so far in their "reverence" of him that it is said "if God dies, at least we'll still have St. Nicholas."
This is just typical of the legends, fables and folklore that surrounds RC's stable of saints and only serves to prove the utter futility of praying to these people.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/29/2008 3:38:16 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
As for scriptural precedent - there is none.
Then you've missed a few posts, IMHO. Don't think I've missed any passages used to support praying to saints. The problem is not one of them actually does. And it has nothing to do with "opinion".
No where in the Revelation verses is there any support for praying to saints - bowls of incense notwithstanding. I don't think even most RC apologists attempt to use that one anymore.
The James 5 verse is another example, although offered as support, it is clear that conscientiousness should prevent it from being used to support what it clearly does not. Unless, of course, you claim the saints in heaven are confessing their sins to you and asking you to pray for them.
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The verses which have been offered are less than flimsy, they are totally without substance and have be proven to be without any merit whatsoever. They are, in fact, subject to the most amazingly incoherent statements.
IYHO I presume correct.  No, not correct....according to any even minimally honest logical system of hermeneutics.
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Some RC named saints and hierarchy have so distorted Scripture and invalidly appointed Mary as one who can take the place of God in prayer.
You continue to miss understand Mary's role. I am sorry I can not make it clearer for you. What has been done with Mary is very clear and I understand very well. The titles given to her, the petitions asked of her are those reserved for God - at least according to Scripture. Mary, is absolutely viewed as an alternative to God and, in fact, prayed to as if equal to God. She is asked to do things only God can do, this is plainly seen in many if not most of the RC "official" prayers to her.
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No, prayer is a form of worship about that there is no doubt.
Webster and I disagree with you. Secular dictionaries are not the best place to learn about God. In any event, there are dictionaries which include prayer as worship...and that would agree with Scripture.
Main Entry: prayer
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: pleading, especially with a deity;
Synonyms: request for help, answer adoration, appeal, application, begging, benediction, beseeching, communion, devotion, entreaty, grace, imploration, imploring, imprecation, invocation, litany, orison, petition, plea, pleading, request, rogation, service, suit, supplication, worship
prayer
Show Spelled Pronunciation [prair] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.
5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.
6. that which is prayed for.
7. a petition; entreaty.
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What you're doing is engaging in a spiritual experience of praying to spirits - which is worship.
The worship of God. It's not worshipping God when you're praying to someone else.
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I don't think I will be back, so I don't respond that's why, only 5 more weeks till the baby comes and I have lots to do!
Congratulations on your forthcoming blessing from God! I will say a prayer to God for the health of you both.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/31/2008 12:42:47 AM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 1053
Joined: 10/5/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kielbasa
Hi, Samson (nice hair, btw  )
Couple of things:
Please give us your definition of "saint."
Well, I said a couple of things, but I think I need your definition before I get to the second.
Thanks!
I have no doctrines that I ascribe to if they are not Biblical. The same goes with definitions. The process of sanctification begins at salvation, where those who believe are deemed saints.
" To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours." 1 COR:2
Positionally all Christians are saints. Even if our conduct is un-Christlike.
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Knowledge humbles great men, astonishes the common man, and puffs up the little man
Chubby babies rock!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/31/2008 12:23:27 PM
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loco79
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/18/2008
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quote:
The evidence from Scripture is that those in heaven do not know
Lk 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Lk 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth
In these two verses the angels notice, as do all of heaven, and pay attention us here on earth.
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If you want to know what saints in heaven do, why not go to the only place that can tell you the truth?....the Bible. The emphasis certainly seems to be on praise and worship (Rev.4 & 5, 15:3,4), "they are before the throne of God and they serve Him day and night in His [heavenly] temple" (Rev.7:15).
We as Christians serve God, on earth and in heaven, part of serving God is praying with and for one another.
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If you wish to continue to use, as it appears you do, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another," of James 5:16 as support for your practices, then the saints you're praying to are obviously confessing their sins to you and asking you to pray for them.....are they? Scripture says they are joyous, yet, your doctrines have the saints in heaven sorrowful over earthly affairs. Always better to put our faith in Scripture than an oppossing tradition.
You know as well as I, that not everything applies to everyone equally. We all have different roles, those in heaven don’t need to ask for any forgiveness. And at the same time they are serving God, and one way to serve him is through prayer, they clearly rejoice over conversions. In Rev 8, why is it that the angels present our prayers to God? How come it isn’t Jesus? Or why don’t they go directly to God? I thought Jesus was the only intermediary between us and God.
In Rev 8:3-4,
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
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God's saints in heaven are busy celebrating and adoring the perfections of God in Christ (Rev 5:11-12; 7:11-12). They are delightfully employed in beholding the glory of God in the face of the Lord Jesus(John 17:24). They don't have time for the earthly horrors you wish to drag them back into. No, they will be too busy as they bask in the enjoyment of the manifestation of God in all His attributes.
And if the saints in heaven don’t notice what is going on, then why in Rev 6 are they waiting for their deaths to be avenged; to those who are on earth?
Rev 6:9
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
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Why was God angry at Saul?...because he didn't come to Him in prayer(1Chronicles 10:13-14). God strictly forbids calling upon the spirits of the dead (Deut 18:10-11; Acts 19:19; Gal 1:8-9, 5.20; I Tim 4:1; Rev 21:8, etc.)
We are not calling the spirits of the dead, rather our brothers. This is seen in Rev 6:11
Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
As I have said before, we are the brothers of those who have died before us, and we are one spirit of Christ, not a fractious one. And how are we brothers? Let us turn to Gal 2, Paul states he is crucified with Christ, are not all Christians past and present crucified with him? And doesn’t Paul say that not even death separates us from him? And if nothing can separate us from him Rom 8; then how is it that we are one with him, whether living on earth or in heaven? It is through the spirit that we are all one, and clearly the spirit transcends earthly life.
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Rom 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
And since those who have died in Christ are as the angels in heaven (Mrk 12:25), and those who are in heaven do notice what is going on in earth (Lk 15:7; Lk 15:10; Rev 6:9), while in heaven they do continue to serve God (Rev 7:15), and since the angels do offer our prayers to God (Rev 8) and if we are all one spirit of Jesus, then how is it wrong to ask those who clearly see us, and have feelings; to pray for us; since we are all crucified with christ, and not even death separates us from our union with him and all believers.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/31/2008 12:49:20 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Loco79,
quote:
Lk 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Lk 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth
In these two verses the angels notice, as do all of heaven, and pay attention us here on
Notice what Jesus is refering to in those passages about someone coming to the knowledge of God. Repenting in otherwords. Angels rejoicing in heaven.
Not petitioning God to change something in the person's life.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/31/2008 1:48:00 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1500
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Lk 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Lk 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth
In these two verses the angels notice, as do all of heaven, and pay attention us here on earth.
It doesn't say how they found out, for one thing. Perhaps Jesus announces to all of heaven when a sinner repents, it really wouldn't surprise me. It certainly doesn't indicate that they observed it for themselves. And it says "joy in the presence of the angels", but doesn't specify *whose* joy. So it could be talking about God's joy.
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We as Christians serve God, on earth and in heaven, part of serving God is praying with and for one another.
There are many things we do to serve God. There's no indication that the prescribed service of those in Heaven is to pray for us, while on the other hand those here on earth are specifically exhorted to do so.
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You know as well as I, that not everything applies to everyone equally. We all have different roles, those in heaven don’t need to ask for any forgiveness. And at the same time they are serving God, and one way to serve him is through prayer, they clearly rejoice over conversions. In Rev 8, why is it that the angels present our prayers to God? How come it isn’t Jesus? Or why don’t they go directly to God? I thought Jesus was the only intermediary between us and God.
But we're talking about an exhortation in a specific set of verses, which you have repeatedly claimed applies to those in heaven, but which specifically denotes two way communication both for prayer and for confession. So, in other words, that verse cannot apply to those in heaven. Partially because the exhortation is specifically to those here, partially because, as you said, those in heaven do not need to make confession. So, again, it CANNOT be applied to those who are dead and have been fully cleansed.
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In Rev 8:3-4,
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
The angel has incense. Not the prayers. Look at the syntax there. I've checked this in multiple versions. The prayers are already on the golden altar before the throne. The angel brings incense to offer with those prayers, the angel does not bring the prayers with him, they're already there. The incense the angel has is added to the prayers on that altar, and the smoke of the incense mixes with those prayers, which ascend before God. It's not saying what you say it's saying.
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And if the saints in heaven don’t notice what is going on, then why in Rev 6 are they waiting for their deaths to be avenged; to those who are on earth?
Rev 6:9
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Well, obviously they knew about their deaths. They were there. They also know that God is going to step in for once and for all and judge the entire human race, including those who killed them. They know this hasn't happened yet because they know they'll be there for that judgment, so they're asking this question. They're not talking to God about things that are happening right this second on earth, they're talking about wrongs done to themselves specifically, which obviously they would know about.
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We are not calling the spirits of the dead, rather our brothers. This is seen in Rev 6:11
Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
They're still dead though. Unless you're claiming that Samuel of all people wouldn't be one of the righteous dead?
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As I have said before, we are the brothers of those who have died before us, and we are one spirit of Christ, not a fractious one. And how are we brothers? Let us turn to Gal 2, Paul states he is crucified with Christ, are not all Christians past and present crucified with him? And doesn’t Paul say that not even death separates us from him? And if nothing can separate us from him Rom 8; then how is it that we are one with him, whether living on earth or in heaven? It is through the spirit that we are all one, and clearly the spirit transcends earthly life.
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Rom 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
And since those who have died in Christ are as the angels in heaven (Mrk 12:25), and those who are in heaven do notice what is going on in earth (Lk 15:7; Lk 15:10; Rev 6:9), while in heaven they do continue to serve God (Rev 7:15), and since the angels do offer our prayers to God (Rev 8) and if we are all one spirit of Jesus, then how is it wrong to ask those who clearly see us, and have feelings; to pray for us; since we are all crucified with christ, and not even death separates us from our union with him and all believers.
Hmm. I guess I would ask a question.
Do you pray to Pope Benedict?
Why not? Surely, being Pope, his prayers would be among the most efficacious of anyone's here on earth.
Because he's in the Vatican and can't hear you? That's interesting. I mean, he's part of the body of Christ that we're all part of. And if we're all one spirit in Christ, and nothing can separate us from Christ, and you claim that applies to the dead saints too even though Scripture doesn't indicate that, surely Pope Benedict can hear your prayers and intercede for you too.
Just as being part of the body of Christ doesn't mean that you can communicate via prayer to everyone who's a Christian here on earth, there is no indication whatsoever that being part of the body of Christ means that you can communicate via prayer to everyone who's a Christian in heaven. There is no such "spiritual telepathy" on earth, despite the fact that we're a communion. Therefore it's entirely unreasonable to expect there to be some sort of "spiritual telepathy" to those in heaven. The ONLY one who Scripture says knows our innermost thoughts, intercedes for us, knows our needs, and hears our prayer, is GOD ALONE. Why? Because He's GOD. He's all-knowing. As my daughter's little book says, "Mommy can't hear me when I whisper to my friends... but God does." Humans are limited creatures, whether still here on earth, or in heaven. We're not omniscient.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/1/2008 11:09:40 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
I think my newest comment is germaine to this conversation and I think is related to this. I learned over the weekend that Saint Nicholas of Myra (also known as Saint Nicholas of Bari and Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker) is the patron saint of prostitutes and thieves, among other things. Now why in the world would the Catholic church have such a thing and what exactly would you pray to this guy for?
I don't know where you received your information, but it is wrong. If you look on various Orthodox websites you will discover that St. Nicholas is a saint of children, of sailors and those who travel on the sea, and those who have been unjustly treated and persecuted.
HD
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See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2008 3:43:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: loco79
We as Christians serve God, on earth and in heaven, part of serving God is praying with and for one another. No, that you offer prayers to the dead is your doctrine, not something found in Scripture or permitted by God.
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If you wish to continue to use, as it appears you do, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another," of James 5:16 as support for your practices, then the saints you're praying to are obviously confessing their sins to you and asking you to pray for them.....are they? Scripture says they are joyous, yet, your doctrines have the saints in heaven sorrowful over earthly affairs. Always better to put our faith in Scripture than an oppossing tradition.
You know as well as I, that not everything applies to everyone equally. We all have different roles, those in heaven don’t need to ask for any forgiveness. This is precisely what James 5:16 says "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed." So, if you insist on using it as a support for your doctrine, you are effectively saying that the saints in heaven are praying for you and confessing their sins to you. Sorry, no matter how hard you try, you can't have it both ways. When RC uses this type of "evidence" its argument is flimsy and lacks any substance or significance.
This verse offers no support to RC doctrine whatsoever. Again, do you confess your sins to the saints now? Do they confess their sins to you? Of course not. This is clearly limited to those individual members of the local churches - it says so - "call for the elders of the church".
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And at the same time they are serving God, and one way to serve him is through prayer, they clearly rejoice over conversions God rejoices over the repentence of one sinner and this joy is in the presence or before the angels. Or, iow, the angels join in the joy of Christ.
There are two other parables in Luke 15 where the woman/Christ finds her lost "coin" and the man/Christ finds his lost "sheep" both ask others to rejoice with them. Both the man and the woman would be a picture of Christ who rejoices over the salvation of the one He owns - the repentant sinner.
There are some other passages which lend themselves to the fact God rejoices over His Bride or the ones He loves.
As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. -Isaiah 62:5
The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing. -Zephaniah 3:17
As can be seen, these passages declaring there is joy in heaven over a repentant sinner in no way substantiates your claims since it is God who rejoices, besides which, prayers are not even addressed.
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In Rev 8, why is it that the angels present our prayers to God? Where'd you get that from?...not from Rev 8:3-5 you don't. No where do those verses say the prayers are from those on earth. That's another reason why its ridiculous to use it as support for your argument. In fact, when read in context with Rev 6, we find considerable evidence that these prayers are from those already in heaven. "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
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I thought Jesus was the only intermediary between us and God. According to the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only Mediator. So, good luck trying to get anyone else to make reconciliation between you and the Father.
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And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. -Revelation 8:3-4 These prayers are offered to God, not to anyone else - for the incense ascended up before God. The "incense" represents the prayers of the saints - it says so twice. In both Rev 5 and Rev 8 the most scripturally accurate understanding is that they’re prayers to God, asking for justice on earth. They aren’t prayers to the spirits of dead saints in heaven. Besides, is there no one in RC who recognizes that all this is metaphorical language?
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And if the saints in heaven don’t notice what is going on, then why in Rev 6 are they waiting for their deaths to be avenged; to those who are on earth? Ah, they are praying to God for justice - not taking your prayers to God. Anyway, seems these martyrs would notice if they had received their resurrected bodies, don't you think? They know they haven't yet been avenged because the end is not yet - that's all it says. Not a thing about their "noticing" what happens on earth.
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Why was God angry at Saul?...because he didn't come to Him in prayer(1Chronicles 10:13-14). God strictly forbids calling upon the spirits of the dead (Deut 18:10-11; Acts 19:19; Gal 1:8-9, 5.20; I Tim 4:1; Rev 21:8, etc.)
We are not calling the spirits of the dead, rather our brothers. This is seen in Rev 6:11
Of course you are...they are physically dead and spiritually alive. Therefore, you are calling on the spirits of the dead. If it makes you feel any better, you can imagine you're calling on the dead spirits of your brothers.
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As I have said before, we are the brothers of those who have died before us, and we are one spirit of Christ, not a fractious one. And how are we brothers? Let us turn to Gal 2, Paul states he is crucified with Christ, are not all Christians past and present crucified with him? And doesn’t Paul say that not even death separates us from him? And if nothing can separate us from him Rom 8; then how is it that we are one with him, whether living on earth or in heaven? It is through the spirit that we are all one, and clearly the spirit transcends earthly life. All of which is totally immaterial to the question of praying to the saints in heaven. It gives no authority or sanction for the doctrine. It simply doesn't address the issue, therefore it cannot be reasonably deduced from the passages.
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And since those who have died in Christ are as the angels in heaven (Mrk 12:25) See, this is what RC does and it really is shameful. It clearly demonstrates the total unreasonableness and the lack of plausibility for its argument. The more ridiculous "arguments" RC offers the more transparent the lack of biblical support becomes evident. RC will turn the Word of God on its ear attempting to prove a self-instituted doctrine. Mark 12:25 is speaking about marrying in heaven and only in THAT respect will we be like the angels.
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and those who are in heaven do notice what is going on in earth (Lk 15:7; Lk 15:10; Rev 6:9), You are making assumptions for which you have been totally unable to prove or even offer the slightest evidence. These verses do not agree that those in heaven "notice what is going on in earth" as can be seen from the actual biblical evidence I have provided.
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...then how is it wrong to ask those who clearly see us, and have feelings; to pray for us; since we are all crucified with christ, and not even death separates us from our union with him and all believers. You've attempted an end around with the Bible; but, you have totally failed to score because you have been intercepted by Scripture. You have presented nothing other than what feels good, nothing other than what feels right or fair, nothing other than what your church teaches; but, you've been unable to present anything Scripture teaches - that is why it is wrong.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2008 4:09:14 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
I think my newest comment is germaine to this conversation and I think is related to this. I learned over the weekend that Saint Nicholas of Myra (also known as Saint Nicholas of Bari and Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker) is the patron saint of prostitutes and thieves, among other things. Now why in the world would the Catholic church have such a thing and what exactly would you pray to this guy for?
I don't know where you received your information, but it is wrong. If you look on various Orthodox websites you will discover that St. Nicholas is a saint of children, of sailors and those who travel on the sea, and those who have been unjustly treated and persecuted.
HD
You've got to love the legends that grow-up around some of these people. This is one example of a silly tale.
"According to legend, Nicholas was said to have rigorously observed the canonical fasts of Wednesdays and Fridays, even when an infant, by abstaining on those days from his mother's breast."...what a baby...lol
As for the prostitutes, it comes from the following folktale along with the "goodies" for Christmas. Here's the first lines:
"In his most famous exploit however, a poor man had three daughters but could not afford a proper dowry for them. This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in absence of any other possible employment would have to become prostitutes.".....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas_Day
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2008 7:44:33 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I don't know where you received your information, but it is wrong. If you look on various Orthodox websites you will discover that St. Nicholas is a saint of children, of sailors and those who travel on the sea, and those who have been unjustly treated and persecuted.
HD
You've got to love the legends that grow-up around some of these people. This is one example of a silly tale.
"According to legend, Nicholas was said to have rigorously observed the canonical fasts of Wednesdays and Fridays, even when an infant, by abstaining on those days from his mother's breast."...what a baby...lol
As for the prostitutes, it comes from the following folktale along with the "goodies" for Christmas. Here's the first lines:
"In his most famous exploit however, a poor man had three daughters but could not afford a proper dowry for them. This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in absence of any other possible employment would have to become prostitutes.".....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas_Day
Kelman,
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. It's one thing to disagree with the idea of asking saints to pray for you. But, there's enough reliable information out there that you don't have to go to Wikky as your source. Any "lay" person can add whatever they want - which is why Wikky is not an acceptable source to use when writing a paper for college. After all, I could go to Jack Chick as my source information on how to be a Christian. Not such a good source, wouldn't you agree?
HD
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2008 9:21:58 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4409
Joined: 4/11/2005
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From Catholic Online:
quote:
We are assured that from his earliest days Nicholas would take nourishment only once on Wednesdays and Fridays, and that in the evening according to the canons.
...
A citizen of Patara had lost all his money, and had moreover to support three daughters who could not find husbands because of their poverty; so the wretched man was going to give them over to prostitution. This came to the ears of Nicholas, who thereupon took a bag of gold and, under cover of darkness threw it in at the open window of the man's house. Here was a dowry for the eldest girl and she was soon duly married.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2008 3:15:30 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Kelman,
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. It's one thing to disagree with the idea of asking saints to pray for you. But, there's enough reliable information out there that you don't have to go to Wikky as your source. Any "lay" person can add whatever they want - which is why Wikky is not an acceptable source to use when writing a paper for college. After all, I could go to Jack Chick as my source information on how to be a Christian. Not such a good source, wouldn't you agree? Actually, no I wouldn't agree, at least not on this one. As you see Wikipedia has much of the exact same info found on many sites which I'm sure you would consider more reliable and from all appearances has done an excellent job on good ol' St. Nick. I guess you didn't check your own reliable sources before taking pot shots at the prostitute and infant fasting legends associated with Nicholas.
Besides, all this folklore about saints is really a bunch of silliness. Even ETWN has to admit: "Nearly five hundred years had passed since the death of the good St. Nicholas, and Methodius' account, therefore, had to be based more on legend than actual fact."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2008 9:41:53 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4409
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Several of the Catholic sites I visited mention the "cult of St. Nicholas" and cults of various other saints. So I assume that the RCC knows its members are worshiping saints and doesn't care.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2008 11:58:23 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you pray to Pope Benedict?
Why not? Surely, being Pope, his prayers would be among the most efficacious of anyone's here on earth.
Because he's in the Vatican and can't hear you? That's interesting. I mean, he's part of the body of Christ that we're all part of. And if we're all one spirit in Christ, and nothing can separate us from Christ, and you claim that applies to the dead saints too even though Scripture doesn't indicate that, surely Pope Benedict can hear your prayers and intercede for you too.
Just as being part of the body of Christ doesn't mean that you can communicate via prayer to everyone who's a Christian here on earth, there is no indication whatsoever that being part of the body of Christ means that you can communicate via prayer to everyone who's a Christian in heaven. There is no such "spiritual telepathy" on earth, despite the fact that we're a communion. Therefore it's entirely unreasonable to expect there to be some sort of "spiritual telepathy" to those in heaven. The ONLY one who Scripture says knows our innermost thoughts, intercedes for us, knows our needs, and hears our prayer, is GOD ALONE. Why? Because He's GOD. He's all-knowing. As my daughter's little book says, "Mommy can't hear me when I whisper to my friends... but God does." Humans are limited creatures, whether still here on earth, or in heaven. We're not omniscient.
Yes another way of putting it to the masses.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/4/2008 10:21:40 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Congratulations on your forthcoming blessing from God! I will say a prayer to God for the health of you both.
Thank you!
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/4/2008 5:47:29 PM
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loco79
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Loco79,
quote:
Lk 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Lk 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth
In these two verses the angels notice, as do all of heaven, and pay attention us here on
Notice what Jesus is refering to in those passages about someone coming to the knowledge of God. Repenting in otherwords. Angels rejoicing in heaven.
Not petitioning God to change something in the person's life.
First you say that those in heaven have no knowledge of what is going on, then you put a limit as to what they can do. I have given scriptural evidence that can be implied using a logical format that does not contradict other teachings.
First not everything will be explicitly stated in the bible, I am sure you are well aware of this, since the bible alone and faith alone are not explicit anywhere. An implied meaning can be revealed to us as long as it doesnt contradict truth.
I am waiting for you to present your case using the same standard for all biblical interpretation and not changing when you see fit.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/6/2008 4:43:31 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loco79
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Loco79,
quote:
Lk 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Lk 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth
In these two verses the angels notice, as do all of heaven, and pay attention us here on
Notice what Jesus is refering to in those passages about someone coming to the knowledge of God. Repenting in otherwords. Angels rejoicing in heaven.
Not petitioning God to change something in the person's life.
First you say that those in heaven have no knowledge of what is going on, then you put a limit as to what they can do. I have given scriptural evidence that can be implied using a logical format that does not contradict other teachings.
First not everything will be explicitly stated in the bible, I am sure you are well aware of this, since the bible alone and faith alone are not explicit anywhere. An implied meaning can be revealed to us as long as it doesnt contradict truth.
I am waiting for you to present your case using the same standard for all biblical interpretation and not changing when you see fit.
Since I "presented" the case against your position in post #4584 and no effort at rebuttal was made, we can only assume you have no rebuttal, that you are unable to support your position. Therefore, the case has been made proving your doctrine effortlessly fails as even remotely scriptural.
Or do we still need to just "wait" a little longer for you to "present your case"?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2008 12:33:37 AM
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ukfan
Posts: 347
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I think my newest comment is germaine to this conversation and I think is related to this. I learned over the weekend that Saint Nicholas of Myra (also known as Saint Nicholas of Bari and Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker) is the patron saint of prostitutes and thieves, among other things. Now why in the world would the Catholic church have such a thing and what exactly would you pray to this guy for?
A Patron Saint of a particular group of people or people in a particular situation in life is not necessarily a promotion of that. Most often it is that the Saint had a particular affinity for helping people in that situation. For instance, maybe a Saint was an adulterer before converting and after their conversion they counseled adulterers on their sins and the forgiveness of Christ and prayed for their conversion. I'm sure the exact same thing happens at your church today.
quote:
Several of the Catholic sites I visited mention the "cult of St. Nicholas" and cults of various other saints. So I assume that the RCC knows its members are worshiping saints and doesn't care.
Catholics adore only God. No one else. It's one of the fundamental doctrines of our faith. The word "cult" here does not mean what you think it does. One of the definitions of "cult" is an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2008 1:33:21 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
Status: offline
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quote:
Catholics adore only God. No one else. It's one of the fundamental doctrines of our faith. The word "cult" here does not mean what you think it does.
When will the RCC come clean and honestly admit that it promotes superstition and idolatry? That would be most helpful to all concerned.
Casuistry has become the hallmark of Catholic teaching. "No we don't worship Mary but we do prefer praying to her because she is more sympathetic than the Lord Jesus Christ". Why not simply say "Mary is more important to us than the triune Godhead, because that is what we promote and believe".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2008 8:18:41 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4409
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
quote:
Several of the Catholic sites I visited mention the "cult of St. Nicholas" and cults of various other saints. So I assume that the RCC knows its members are worshiping saints and doesn't care.
Catholics adore only God. No one else. It's one of the fundamental doctrines of our faith. The word "cult" here does not mean what you think it does. One of the definitions of "cult" is an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
Adore/great veneration, tomato/tomahto.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/9/2008 12:52:43 PM
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