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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 1:38:31 PM
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Happy_Happy_Lamont
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So, a question to those who "don't work on Sunday":
Do you spend $ on Sunday, or force others to work, by eating out or going shopping?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 1:39:16 PM
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gambit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Sugar, I was an SDA for over 40 years. I know Sabbath. You, in your statement, said that "WE (my emphasis) were commanded to keep". God only gave it to the Jews. The statement shouldn't be WE, it is "they". We are to do what the Lord commands. He just isn't commanding Sabbath observance for Christians. Really it is very simple once you understand the Covenants and don't try to mix the two. As stated above the Sabbath and the remainder of th 613 ritual laws were certainly abolished.
Is Sabbath ritualistic? Didn't God institute the Sabbath and rest on the Sabbath? Why would God need to do any ritualistic observances?
Exodus 31:14 'Obeserve the sabbath because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death".
That was a command from God to Moses as far as instructing the Israelites as quoted in verse 17: "It will be a sign between me and the Israelites...
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 1:52:33 PM
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bobservations
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Well happy, I don't work any day. I am retired. To answer your question. I don't "keep" Sunday. I fellowship with believers that day, but the New Testament doesn't require me to not buy nor sell on any day.
Do you have a point to make?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 2:06:29 PM
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bobservations
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Rock, we have gone over and over why the Sabbath is not required for Christians. I have done my best to answer all the questions. If you don't think the Sabbath commandment is a ritual law then so be it. I do and that helps to explain why it isn't required today. If it had Moral implications it would been required of Abraham and his decendants. It wasn't. It was lost after sin in the Garden of Eden. Before that it was perpetual.
For the Israelites it was a law that if broken was punishable with death. Even breaking the Moral laws didn't always carry the death penalty.
Now our rest is in Jesus. I thank the Lord that I live this side of the Cross. Don't even try to put me back on the other side. I know where my salvation comes from.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 2:07:28 PM
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Happy_Happy_Lamont
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Well happy, I don't work any day. I am retired. To answer your question. I don't "keep" Sunday. I fellowship with believers that day, but the New Testament doesn't require me to not buy nor sell on any day.
Do you have a point to make?
Yes, my point is that supporting people who work on the sabbath is the same as working yourself. I think it's a little hypocritical for people to say "they don't work on Sunday", and then go out to eat and go shopping. Clearly most people don't have a problem with working on the sabbath, so it doesn't appear to be an issue, but I find it a little hypocritical when people do this.
To me it's like saying you would never kill another person, then cheer on war. It's hypocracy.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 2:16:47 PM
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bobservations
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Happy, Sunday isn' in any way the Sabbath.
Please don't just pop in and make statements until you have read the entire thread. We are not saying Sunday carries the significance of the Sabbath.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 2:33:10 PM
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Happy_Happy_Lamont
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Happy, Sunday isn' in any way the Sabbath.
Please don't just pop in and make statements until you have read the entire thread. We are not saying Sunday carries the significance of the Sabbath.
I see the point that you and others are making bobservations, and I agree with you. I just don't like how some people that do hold "Sunday as the sabbath" (or Saturday for that matter) support work on it and say they don't. That's all.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 2:33:12 PM
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gambit
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Show us a scripture that says we are forbidden to spend money on a Sunday and I'll stop.
< Message edited by gambit -- 7/14/2005 2:35:47 PM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 2:53:27 PM
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Happy_Happy_Lamont
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
Show us a scripture that says we are forbidden to spend money on a Sunday and I'll stop.
It's the same one that says don't work on Sunday.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 2:56:01 PM
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gambit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Happy_Happy_Lamont
quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
Show us a scripture that says we are forbidden to spend money on a Sunday and I'll stop.
It's the same one that says don't work on Sunday.
Where?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 3:04:39 PM
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Happy_Happy_Lamont
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Happy_Happy_Lamont
quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
Show us a scripture that says we are forbidden to spend money on a Sunday and I'll stop.
It's the same one that says don't work on Sunday.
Where?
If you don't support work on Sunday, then don't support others who do. That is it. It's simple logic. If you interpret the Bible to say "don't work on Sunday", then paying others to work on Sunday implicates you.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 3:35:34 PM
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gambit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Happy_Happy_Lamont
quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Happy_Happy_Lamont
quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
Show us a scripture that says we are forbidden to spend money on a Sunday and I'll stop.
It's the same one that says don't work on Sunday.
Where?
If you don't support work on Sunday, then don't support others who do. That is it. It's simple logic. If you interpret the Bible to say "don't work on Sunday", then paying others to work on Sunday implicates you.
Pure and simple logic? Where are you coming from?
There's no Biblical law that states what you are indicating. I know people who go to work after service on Sunday. There's nothing wrong with that.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 3:49:30 PM
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Happy_Happy_Lamont
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I think we are in agreement here. I work on Sunday too.
My point is this:
Some people interpret "The Sabbath" to mean "Sunday". In this interpretation, they say they cannot work on Sunday.
However, they encourage others to do so, but do not see their hypocracy.
That is my entire point.
I am not saying you shouldn't work on Sunday, I was just saying that if you think Sunday is the Sabbath and you cannot work on Sunday, then you shouldn't encourage others to do so by engaging in commerce.
See now?
I think we are participating in two separate debates here. The point isn't over a specific verse... its about an interpretation and actions that do not match it.
:)
quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Happy_Happy_Lamont
quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Happy_Happy_Lamont
quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
Show us a scripture that says we are forbidden to spend money on a Sunday and I'll stop.
It's the same one that says don't work on Sunday.
Where?
If you don't support work on Sunday, then don't support others who do. That is it. It's simple logic. If you interpret the Bible to say "don't work on Sunday", then paying others to work on Sunday implicates you.
Pure and simple logic? Where are you coming from?
There's no Biblical law that states what you are indicating. I know people who go to work after service on Sunday. There's nothing wrong with that.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 4:03:17 PM
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rockv12
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I think Happy has us all confused...Happy, Sunday is not the Sabbath, Saturday is. Now whether you believe in keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) is the point of this thread, not Sunday and working and all you are trying to say.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 4:08:33 PM
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rockv12
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Rock, we have gone over and over why the Sabbath is not required for Christians. I have done my best to answer all the questions. If you don't think the Sabbath commandment is a ritual law then so be it. I do and that helps to explain why it isn't required today. If it had Moral implications it would been required of Abraham and his decendants. It wasn't. It was lost after sin in the Garden of Eden. Before that it was perpetual.
For the Israelites it was a law that if broken was punishable with death. Even breaking the Moral laws didn't always carry the death penalty.
Now our rest is in Jesus. I thank the Lord that I live this side of the Cross. Don't even try to put me back on the other side. I know where my salvation comes from.
Bob, I didn't realize you had taken the position of Boss of the thread. If you don't think Sabbath is to be kept anymore, then so be it too. If we didn't care about the issue, we wouldn't be in here typing back and forth.
My salvation alone comes from the blood of Jesus Christ. We both know that and praise God for it!! But along with salvation comes obedience. Salvation is free to an extent. It's a free gift, but we aren't given free tickets to heaven without obedience. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength." Wouldn't this love include obedience? We are in disagreement on what we still need to obey, that's all.
Are either of us going to hell if we end up wrong? No, we are both living how we honestly and whole-heartedly interpret the Bible.
< Message edited by rockv12 -- 7/14/2005 4:10:44 PM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 5:02:41 PM
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gambit
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I almost agree, obedience is important. However don't miss out on grace. That's the key that goes into salvation. Not trying to be good enough by keeping a law. It's 100% grace.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 5:57:39 PM
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Chief
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quote:
Chief, it is evident that you esteem one day above another. I believe it my heart we have to. Not that it is a burden but as a delight to meet with believers spend a day devoid of the worries of work and career. A day that refreshes the mind with the word of God, worship, prayer and rest...notwitstanding the allowance for necessities and mercies. It is not a new commandment that is imposed nor an old commandment that must be maintained as a burden. Just like anything else in the decalogue, following the them is a delight in the heart of the children of God.
I can't wait for the Lord's day to fellowship with believers and to listen to His word. Why must that be a burden or a mere tradition of man. Hunger for the presence of God even corporately is a freedom we must not neglect. Otherwise we would have patterned our thinking with the world that there is nothing sacred about the Lord's day.
Oh, yes, I worship Him daily, too. At work as I discharge my duty it is unto His glory that I do. In the morning, noon time and evening I spend quite some time to read the word, meditate and pray. But it is not only about me as one believer but about us the church.
That is why we are calle the church. The assembly of God. The gathered once. Our reflection of that name is also projected in our assembly. We are the ekklesia of the Lord therefore we behave in such a way as well.
How important is it to set aside one day for the Lord? Important for our souls and for a testimony to the world that does it's own pleasure in everyday of the week. At least the world gathers for their pleasure in sports, in the pub and in their leisure and spend a weekend together or a day for their pleasure. And we call the sabbath of the Lord a burden? The burden is in the rituals and religious ceremonies but not the day itself.
It was made for our benefit just like any of the decalogue is. For our own benefit. For our rest. For our feeding. For our refreshing. For our growth. For our fellowship as a church with God. It is not a burden to set one day to God. Israel was called to delight in it. Because it is what it truly is a delight. Not a yoke.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
quote:
Christianity is not about a day, it is about being ready to meet our maker and spreading the Good News. Obviously it is also towards that same practicality that we must not neglect the assembly and keeping at least one day to the Lord. We justify that we worship God 24/7 well that is a commendable desire or goal but why must be one day of total dedication to God be more of a burden if we are now a 24/7 worshipper? That means we can do a one whole day for God. If we are so looking forward to an eternity of praises and worship, one day is not a burden. It would be towards the training of our souls to meeting that eternal task.
quote:
Trying to keep a day seems so trivial to me. Love, forgiveness, compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience are far more important than trying to keep a day. Well all these are in the Moral law and even practiced and encouraged in the sabbath. Not so trivial even to the Lord Jesus that He never condemned that day but expanded the application of these very thing everyday and especially on one dedicated day because it is dedicated also to the acts of goodness for God.
quote:
You said that you believe that the Sabbath is part of the Moral laws because it is in the 10 commandments. Of course that is your right to believe that. There is nothing ritualistic about the 4th commandment similar to the "ritualistic" requirements of the 3rd commandments. It is not a ritual to stop for one day for God. The rituals are the ones that are done during that day for religious reasons. Resting is not a ritual. It is resting. Working is not a ritual. It is working. Both are embedded in the 4th commandment. Even you know that the body needs that rest and that we are to continually work because we are all created in the image of God. There is nothing ritualistic about our image.
quote:
Not eating unclean meat was ritual law. And I contend against that too. I do not see anything that should require us to be ritualistic on the Lord's day.
I have not been ritualistic have I? Just the one day that I was commending to each one doesn't it?
The scriptures, prayer, preaching, rest, worship, meditations, fellowship, doing mercy, praisings, singing, delighting are not rituals but are to be natural to the believer, right? There are nothing ritualistic about them that I believe that the Lord's day although for Jesus was to be done in conscience and not in set rules or rituals. How you put those things together is up to you. I do not prescribe a set amount for each of them.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 5:58:52 PM
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Chief
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Happy_Happy_Lamont
So, a question to those who "don't work on Sunday":
Do you spend $ on Sunday, or force others to work, by eating out or going shopping?
I don't eat out on the Lord's day.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 6:03:26 PM
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Chief
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quote:
I almost agree, obedience is important. However don't miss out on grace. That's the key that goes into salvation. Not trying to be good enough by keeping a law. It's 100% grace. Grace makes obedience easier.
Grace makes you run away from sin. Grace makes you tell the truth. Grace makes you look away from lusting. Grace makes you stop covetting. Grace makes you love your parents. Grace will make you work hard. Grace makes you focus on Only One God. Grace will make you rest and worship that Only One God.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 7:53:47 PM
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Happy_Happy_Lamont
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
I think Happy has us all confused...Happy, Sunday is not the Sabbath, Saturday is. Now whether you believe in keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) is the point of this thread, not Sunday and working and all you are trying to say.
Ah... now we're on the same page. I wasn't sure how we were interpreting the Sabbath here. Sorry for the confusion... alot of people seem to consider Sunday the Lord's day instead.
To be honest, this topic also confuses me too.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 8:04:45 PM
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bobservations
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Rock said:
quote:
I think Happy has us all confused...Happy, Sunday is not the Sabbath, Saturday is. Now whether you believe in keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) is the point of this thread, not Sunday and working and all you are trying to say.
Saturday was. I am not confused. I gleen what Happy is saying. I thought it was really hypocritical when I couldn't take a job in our power plant because I wouldn't work on Sabbath. Everyone used th lights, but I was "counciled" not to help keep them on. I saw thing when I worked on Sabbath at the SDA hospital that surely would have made Moses role over in his grave. We just were not allowed to work outside the SDA institutions. What a double standard.
Jews will use the lights, they just won't turn them on.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2005 8:44:30 PM
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bobservations
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Joined: 4/11/2005
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Chief, I admire you and if you are getting a blessing the way you are living Wonderful. Nothing wrong with taking a day off and enjoying it. we surely do need the rest. Well, I am retired, so I rest when I need to. Also there is nothing wrong making traditions like you mentioned.
I don't think you are getting the point. You mentioned you won't eat out on Sunday. Do you consider it a sin to do so? If you do, you really aren't getting the point. You would be just as confused as SDA's are. I give Jews the benifit of the doubt. Most haven't studied the New Covenant.
If you are teaching others to keep Sunday as the Sabbath you are teaching falsehood. No matter how good it feels to you and how you seem to be blessed by doing so. What you would be doing by teaching this is hurting those who have to work on Sunday. I am sure if you taught that we all need one day a week to come apart and rest you would be well recieved.
It has never in NT times been established how often the scripture meant concerning meeting. Heb. 10:25 just says we shouldn't give up meeting together. Maybe he was thinking two or three days or maybe he was thinking once a month. We do not know. What we do know is that we aren't subject to the laws that condemed us if we pick up sticks and build a fire on the Sabbath or enjoy a dinner out. Peace, boB
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2005 9:13:18 AM
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gambit
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I don't see a problem with eating out after a service on Sunday. We are not under the laws of the sabbath requirements. When I was under the SDA dogma, everyone kept the sabbath as they saw fit when they were not at their services. They did not work but some would watch tv, play the stereo, heat up food, take scenic drives, etc. There was always a loop hole somewhere so they could justify their actions.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2005 12:39:37 PM
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Chief
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quote:
I don't see a problem with eating out after a service on Sunday. It bruises my conscience to see another brother do it on the Lord's day. But I have learned to be patient about that and about many things.
< Message edited by Chief -- 7/15/2005 12:57:48 PM >
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2005 12:58:01 PM
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Chief
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quote:
If you are teaching others to keep Sunday as the Sabbath you are teaching falsehood. You still have no idea of how it works for us and how we really view it and how it flows from the heart and scriptures.
I do not teach it even if I have the scriptures to back it up. It rarely is talked about in church. In fact I do not remember it being a heavy subject. Everybody seems to be just like that. Nobody seems to have a problem in church and if it is debated by another person we just explain and move on. If it was a subject it never lingers at all. Not forcing nor even threatening one another.
Other than that what I see is everybody loves the church, the word and the sundays that we spend with the Lord corporately or individually. My kids love it and does not think that they are a burden. My wife, loves the separation from the world for at least a day and looks forward for an eternal one. My family and our church family does not police one another because it is something that flow from our heart. And if any be neglectful we will just pray that they join us again. We miss absenties and we do not come and bash their heads for doing so. We call them if they are sick and in need of help and see how we can. If they are in sin we find the root of it. Their absence from fellowship is just a symptom of something that could be a little deeper. In fact I have always heard of anything who had for a lengthy time left and got busy with other matters that they miss the sundays in church and hearing the word.
We have cops, firemen and even some folks who are forced by their employers to work on the Lord's day. Whenever we get together and they have a sunday off from work they express much love for the Lord and the brethren and how they miss things. They never get talked on for that because we know that it is a work of mercy to them and some are trapped with jobs like that out of necessity. That is how we spend our time and that is how we view the Lord's day. In fact it is way too liberal that a Jew would view it a desecration of the sabbath. We leave a lot of things on the conscience of the individual but we encourage everybody by being there. Being ever consistent and keeping ourselves at least for a day in the presence of God and taking advantage of the means of grace for growth in grace and love for Christ and the brethren.
I have been away from the church for more than two months because I took some responsibilities at work that forces me to work overnight or overtimes on saturdays. It got me tired and sick almost every Sunday. The whole family was visibly absent from church because the wife would not leave to help me out. Sometimes I was not sick but just felt a little drained and decide to sleep the whole day off in preparation for the next work day. My best friend called to see how things are and how he might help me. I explained the situation to him. He just said okay and said that they miss me and pray for health and strength always. He never called to bugged me about it again. The ladies organized to send us some food from time to time just to help out. When we returned everybody was glad to see me as I was to glad to see them.
If it was man's tradition only then it must be forced and kept in check and it must have regulations. But since it comes from the heart and since the Lord said that He will write his law from our heart we see it a fruit of that implantation in us. Never a legalistic matter because if we are under grace these things will have to flow freely from one another and that the love that we have for the Lord brings the law of rest and work free flowing.
< Message edited by Chief -- 7/15/2005 1:20:08 PM >
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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