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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/21/2008 5:24:54 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
I could after reading that web site could seen what the Roman Catholic church feelings were in the 1500's. When Martin Luther nailed his stuff to a door of the church. Just remember that Luther was conider a heretic during his life time. Am i right also Jesus was consider that during his life time.
But that's alright you folks belong to a exclusive club. Where you allow no one to get in. Because God hates them right?
Now then you clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But give what is inside the dish to the poor and everything will be clean for you.
Woe to you because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justic and the love of God You should have praticed the latter without leaving the former undone.
from the Lord Jesus Christ in the passage of Luke 11: 39-42
Ummmm....uhhhhhh....what?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/21/2008 5:37:56 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
One, Pharoah had compassion on the children of Israel Pharaoh let them go only after the ten plagues. The last one was the death of the first born sons from which the Passover Festival comes.
quote:
So one more time explain the verse in which John quoted from our Lord Jesus Christ about the God loving the world
John 3:16 - 21 (ESV) 16“For God so loved the world,£ that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.”
quote:
Tough Love good one you say that my father- in- law used that for as a reason, he kick my wife to the curb on day. He said it was scriptural
Heb 12:5 - 6 (ESV) 5And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? £“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
quote:
And of course my responce to him was show me that passage or story in which God did that. And guess what he couldn't do it either. Israel walked away from God and followed after their neighbor's gods. He never never ever left them.
Luke 13:6 - 9 (ESV) 6And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ 8And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. 9Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/21/2008 7:45:03 PM
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facedown
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jimbo
so....what happened to your "hebrew literary devices"?
out the window when pressed - and when faced with what those "devices" may entail? and simply resort to a response of "parables are very simple"?
colliefan
yes, both sons "took their share of the inheritance" - but the story is about the inbetween, isn't it?
Kat_D
quote:
somehow I think that when it all beings with
(Although this is an obvious attempt at satire, the definitions provided do reflect the views [in caricature] of most of those who identify with this movement.
that suggests that, right off the bat, it isn't an impartial view.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/21/2008 9:17:26 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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I think I made a wrong turn somewhere. Is this still the ECM thread?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/21/2008 9:51:44 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 3005
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quote:
colliefan
yes, both sons "took their share of the inheritance" - but the story is about the inbetween, isn't it?
No, the story is about interaction between three characters: The Father, The Younger Son, and The Older Son. The Younger Son squandered his interitance in foreign lands. The Older Son squandered his by "slaving away" instead of simply enjoying the presence of The Father and from that enjoyments, serving Him.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/22/2008 9:05:26 AM
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mcleod
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Colliefan,
There were more than one Pharaoh in the story between Joseph and Moses.
quote:
Pharaoh let them go only after the ten plagues. The last one was the death of the first born sons from which the Passover Festival comes.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/22/2008 9:24:33 AM
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Kath
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I've read through the last few pages and I'm lost as to how Pharaoh, ten plagues and all has to do with the ECM.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/22/2008 9:53:42 AM
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mcleod
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Colliefan,
quote:
Heb 12:5 - 6 (ESV) 5And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? £“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
So everytime you step out of line God kicks you to the curb and tells you he doesn't want anything to do with you?
I believe he does discipline us when we walk astray. But again there are plenty of pictures where God says that he a loving and forgiving God. I would believe that through his disciplining action he would care how you stayed from harm. With the person who drove my wife down the road and drop off on the street. Could have cared less if his daughter died that night from some other person. As she roamed the streets alone. If there wouldn't have been a God who cared she may have ended up to be another statistic.
Notice I put the walk away part. Not removing for slly stupid disagreement.
Like I have written there are and including myself making mistakes in life. The problem is how you handle the matter. If the person who has made the mistakes comes and apologizes to us, that they have done wrong. Then like Jesus Christ has told us to do we need to forgive them.For this is what the father and the Son do also.
You seem set on that with anyone whom you come in contact in this world you need to treat them with hatred. For some odd reason I can't see that in scriptures.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/22/2008 9:54:54 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
jimbo
so....what happened to your "hebrew literary devices"?
out the window when pressed - and when faced with what those "devices" may entail? and simply resort to a response of "parables are very simple"?
With all due respect, let me rephrase my response to you:
Face, you try way too hard to cram way too much into the parable. Unlike some passages, parables are very simple, straightforward, and not intended to illustrate more than a couple of theological facts. The story is about a father and his two sons; one strayed and another remained at home but neither was less loved at any time. And he did not disown either son.
The father represents God. Both sons represent members of the father's family - joint heirs in Christ. Not lost, unrepentant enemies of the Father and His Kingdom. At no time in the parable did either son lose sonship, that much is also clear.
To make more of it than that just doesn't work.
If you can find a reliable source that asserts that parables contain multifaceted theological thoughts and concepts, I'll be more than happy to consider them. Until then, you cannot make me believe they are the deep repositories of secret messages hidden from believers and only revealed to special people.
Thank you and have a blessed day,
JF
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/22/2008 10:32:00 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
The father represents God. Both sons represent members of the father's family - joint heirs in Christ. Not lost, unrepentant enemies of the Father and His Kingdom. At no time in the parable did either son lose sonship, that much is also clear.
Here is something to chew on:
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again subjecting him to public disgrace.
Seems according to me with that passage. Maybe the Father should not have forgiven the son who went away.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/22/2008 10:44:10 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
The father represents God. Both sons represent members of the father's family - joint heirs in Christ. Not lost, unrepentant enemies of the Father and His Kingdom. At no time in the parable did either son lose sonship, that much is also clear.
Here is something to chew on:
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again subjecting him to public disgrace.
Seems according to me with that passage. Maybe the Father should not have forgiven the son who went away.
Hello, Mc. Unless you think the Bible contradicts itself, then you have misunderstood something. I submit - as I've said countless times - that the prodigal did not, in fact, lose his sonship. So he obviously did not meet the conditions in your quoted passage.
Please note in your quoted passage "if they fall away..." Short word but with MAJOR implications.
Thanks and have a blessed day,
JF
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/22/2008 4:55:10 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 3005
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Colliefan,
There were more than one Pharaoh in the story between Joseph and Moses.
quote:
Pharaoh let them go only after the ten plagues. The last one was the death of the first born sons from which the Passover Festival comes.
I know! The Biblical story states the Pharoah at the time had no knowledge of Josesph. He didn't the Israelites go out of the kindness of his heart!
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/22/2008 5:27:42 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Colliefan,
There were more than one Pharaoh in the story between Joseph and Moses.
quote:
Pharaoh let them go only after the ten plagues. The last one was the death of the first born sons from which the Passover Festival comes.
I know! The Biblical story states the Pharoah at the time had no knowledge of Josesph. He didn't the Israelites go out of the kindness of his heart!
One more time please and read my first statement that I wrote. You will see that I stated two different men at different times with the children of Israel.
Now as it has been mention just recently, this has nothing to do with the ecm people. For this they are asking us to get back on the thread issue.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 7:01:28 AM
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facedown
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jimbo
...let me rephrase my response to you as well:
i try to cram too much into the parable? i wonder how many books have been written on it and other parables? simpleton messages? consider these words:
"...This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.....Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand"......Do you still not understand?.......How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread?......"Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?......"Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?........But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it........."
seems there has been another who implied multi-faceted theological thoughts and concepts in parables.
yes, the father is a metaphor for God
the sons are a metaphor for people - one who stayed in the house, and one who took his inheritance and walked away, became "dead" to his father, and yet came back, and upon his return, he finds "life" again, and his father who had been sinned against, had compassion and forgave him with a feast of feasts. the son who remained; however, refused to go to the party.
now, IMHO if this parable is about anything, as is many of these parables, it's about two things: the hebraic community believing themselves who "stayed in the house" and obeyed god, and the rest of the world. it's about reconciliation and forgiveness, love and compassion. it's about not taking life, relationships, let alone god for granted. it's about not thinking that just because your in the house your "in" and everyone who is outside is "lost", "dead", etc -
_____________________________
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 7:42:11 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
"...This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.....Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand"......Do you still not understand?.......How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread?......"Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?......"Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?........But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it........."
seems there has been another who implied multi-faceted theological thoughts and concepts in parables.
But, Face, with all due respect, that above points out only one, single, solitary point. Multi-faceted means, well, it means many sides, layers, and points.
I stand by the orthodox view that parables are intended as a metaphor to illustrate one primary point. The more you try to pick it apart the further you get from its purpose - and usually the only reason to pick one apart is to support and otherwise untenable position. A parable is not a doctrinal treatise. and a doctrine resting solely or primarily on a parable is the weakest kind.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 7:46:18 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
now, IMHO if this parable is about anything, as is many of these parables, it's about two things: the hebraic community believing themselves who "stayed in the house" and obeyed god, and the rest of the world. it's about reconciliation and forgiveness, love and compassion. it's about not taking life, relationships, let alone god for granted. it's about not thinking that just because your in the house your "in" and everyone who is outside is "lost", "dead", etc -
And if that were true, the parable would have contained only 3 people because you have servants and false foreign friends in this one that are, at best, hirelings and, at worst, enemies of everything the father stands for, which the other pro-emergent poster has chosen to ignore.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 9:00:31 AM
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facedown
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jimbofletch
i appreciate our conversation, as well as the fact that neither one of us are really taking things beyond what they are: a dialogue between a couple of chaps.
with that in mind:
quote:
A parable is not a doctrinal treatise.
this statement could only be validated, if one didn't understand the least bit of ancient hebrew literary devices.
quote:
a doctrine resting solely or primarily on a parable is the weakest kind
agreed. was there some form of question in that statement, or a mere observation?
quote:
if that were true, the parable would have contained only 3 people
not true on many levels, not least of which is the simple fact that parables are indeed stories, they are designed, not to directly answer a question, but invite internal and external dialogue about a variety of issues. and stories contain many elements often not directly associated with the primary meaning of the story.
let's think about luke 16, which has a parable that is often considered jesus' most complex - the shrewd manager.
-rich man-manager-wasting-possessions-other folks who told things to the rich man- accounting- job- diggers, beggars- debtors- olive oil- bushels of wheat- shrewdness- commendation- wealth- friends- eternal dwellings
and then somewhat of an odd little statement following: whoever can be trusted with little will be given much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.....
i say all of this only because so often, parables get passed off to kids as children stories, as 'simpleton' sayings, etc. kind of like koans, there is often many layers, and therefore complexity, with said complexity comes multi-faceted thoughts about god, humanity, and all of creation. so, you just can't write off a parable, that's all i'm saying.
pax
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 10:32:27 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
... so, you just can't write off a parable, that's all i'm saying.
Good morning to you, Face. I never said that nor intended to imply it. I'm just saying trying to peel a parable into layers beyond the obvious is like trying to peel away layers from a naked baby - they're not intended to be dissected without doing serious harm to its purpose. The parable is no "simpleton" sayings by any measure but even a born again, Holy Spirit indwelt simpleton should be able to get its spiritual meaning. If you want deep, multi-layered doctrine, go to the Sermon on the Mount or Paul's epistles. But parables aren't intended to be dissected.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 11:11:38 AM
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mcleod
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The parable of the sower, did it not have as you say layers beyond the obvious? Sounds like when he told the crowd. That the story it was just about a farmer throwing seeds into the soil. Because that is what his disciples got out of the story when Jesus first told them it. They had to ask him what was behind the story he told.
After telling the crowd of it.The discipiles came to him and ask,"Why do you speak to people in parables?"
Jesus replied," The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.Whoever has been given more, and he will have abundance. Whoever does not have even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak in to them in parables.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 12:38:12 PM
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JimboFletch
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Howdy Mc. Them there disciples were workin' wid nary a thang but human logic because, ya see, they haddent been filled wid the Holy Spirit yet. Got it?
Sure, the message was more than about a farmer and seed. That's what a parable is. An allegory. A metaphor. In that case, about spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ and the various responses we should expect. But you'd be foolish to try to make a case for or against the 5 points of Calvinism from the parable.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 1:34:41 PM
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jazzact13
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Ok, to maybe bring things back more to emergent wackiness...
quote:
Jesus made it clear that the afterlife isn't a place. It's a state of being...
While it might not seem like it at first glance, even Jesus' comments about "going to prepare a place for you" and "in my Father's house there are many rooms" come from the rabbinic tradition and are meant to create a picture of God's redemption on earth.
Pagitt, A Christianity Worth Believing, p. 222-223
So, does anyone here know of any 'rabbinic traditions' that teach what Pagitt's claiming? What about the reactions of the disciples when Jesus tells them He's leaving? Why would they be so troubled if they knew he was speaking figuratively?
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 2:44:39 PM
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mcleod
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Jazzact13,
quote:
So, does anyone here know of any 'rabbinic traditions' that teach what Pagitt's claiming? What about the reactions of the disciples when Jesus tells them He's leaving? Why would they be so troubled if they knew he was speaking figuratively? 0
No I never heard of that being explain the way Doug tries to explain it. This where I don't understand where someone writes something or says something, off the top of their brain and come up with ideas like this without backing it up. In his writing did he leave a footnote on it? To be able to research what he mention.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/23/2008 2:51:40 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
Howdy Mc. Them there disciples were workin' wid nary a thang but human logic because, ya see, they haddent been filled wid the Holy Spirit yet. Got it?
I was just wondering is this a slam on me? Because I believe you can't do that if I understand the rules around here.
Especially rules # 6 in the TOS.
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