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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 10:59:33 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dovetales
God owns all the riches in the world already, and He does NOT require that the New Testament church 'tithe' to a man [pastor] or a building ["church". He does tell us to take care of those in need however--and that can be totally seperate from any organized church [and usually is as far as I can see] I stopped tithing when I realized that the Old Testament concept of the tithe was being totally skewed by the modern day pastors to beef up their church funds which then were being used for all manner of things OTHER than those things they were told to use them for by God Himself. So relax and let your pastor rave on, or go somewnere where there is a pastor that is more interested in serving God than he is in helping God serve HIM
I agree that NT believers are not bound by the OT law regarding tithes. However, I differ with much of your comment, at least as far as my own local church is concerned.
First off, my church is involved in two local ministries whose purpose is helping those in need. The first is Mercy Ministries, which provides good meals to people who have trouble feeding themselves. The people who avail themselves of this ministry are increasing in number. And we expect to provide a good thanksgiving meal to about 500 people this November.
The second ministry is Carenet, which provides various services to women going through crisis pregnancies. The goal is to provide options for assistance, financial and otherwise, and make mothers aware of at least the possibility of adoption. About 100 clients a year give birth to babies that might otherwise have been "terminated". While the ministry is definitely Christian, the Carenet leadership goes out of its way to provide welcoming outreach to people who might not be believers at all. More than a few mothers, and fathers too, have come to Christ as a result of experiencing Christian love in action.
There is a third local ministry, serving deaf believers, but I don't include that one, because it's targeted to believers rather than the general public. And of course, there are a lot of overseas missions that provide help for the needy.
I will agree with you that sometimes a Christian can exercise good stewardship over God's bounty by donating to non religious charities. But at least in my experience you don't have to go outside the church to find a charity that helps the needy.
As far as pastors beefing up moneys for secular purposes, I don't see that happening in my church. And I'm going to repeat my exhortation to all readers: get involved in your church's budgeting process. Very few churches are run so autocratically that you can't exercise a major influence in spending priorities just by becoming involved. If anyone is involved with a church that is actually serving Mammon instead of serving God, that's the time to find another church if reform of your church is impossible.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:03:58 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeeAnnBailey
Christ said 'I've not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law'. The tithe was given while under the law. For that reason I believe the 10% is still relevent today. If you choose to disagree, that is absolutely your choice but it won't change what I do and believe. I don't feel forced to give, I feel blessed to give.
As long as you do not feel forced to give, and aren't teaching others to feel forced to give, there is no important disagreement between you and me on this subject.
I also set 10% as a minimum target. I don't think that the 10% rule carries over from the old covenant to the new covenant, after giving due regard to Christ's role in fulfilling the old covenant.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:51:28 AM
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P31W
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quote:
God owns all the riches in the world already, and He does NOT require that the New Testament church 'tithe' to a man [pastor] or a building ["church". He does tell us to take care of those in need however--and that can be totally seperate from any organized church
You appear to be very angry with the Chruch. Are you active currently in a fellowship?
God told the Church to pay thier pastor a double portion is they were hard workers.
God told the Chruch to provide for the widows in their midst who were widows in deed and had lived a certain lifestyle and without other family to care for them.
God told the Chruch to care for the needy within their fellowship.
Giving to secular helping organizations who only give "actual food" with giving spiritural guidance is unheard of in scripture. Our giving was to help the individual see Christ at work in our life and God be glorified not the American Cancer Society.
(our tithes do not go to a pastor even though it helps to pay him. Our tithes to not go to a building even though a portion goes to pay for it's upkeep. The "Chruch" according to scripture is "local assembly" of believers. Our church votes on how all monies are to be spent. That is why no one in our Chruch can "complain" about how the money is spent. We discuss, pray and then vote. 99.9% of the time when you start a business meeting in prayer asking God to direct the meeting you will find the people are in God's will and God's money is being used in ways that bring Him Honor and Glory)
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 11:56:40 AM
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P31W
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quote:
If anyone is involved with a church that is actually serving Mammon instead of serving God, that's the time to find another church if reform of your church is impossible.
Here we agree again. God is going to hold "you" and "me" as individuals responsible for our Chruch selection. God has blessed us in this country with many freedoms other countries don't have. Too often we neglect those freedoms because with that freedom comes responsibility. It's so much easier to not be responsible for our own choices and just complain about "others".
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 9:16:58 PM
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DeeAnnBailey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
quote:
ORIGINAL: DeeAnnBailey
Christ said 'I've not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law'. The tithe was given while under the law. For that reason I believe the 10% is still relevent today. If you choose to disagree, that is absolutely your choice but it won't change what I do and believe. I don't feel forced to give, I feel blessed to give.
As long as you do not feel forced to give, and aren't teaching others to feel forced to give, there is no important disagreement between you and me on this subject.
I also set 10% as a minimum target. I don't think that the 10% rule carries over from the old covenant to the new covenant, after giving due regard to Christ's role in fulfilling the old covenant.
I would teach others that this is what I've learned and God has blessed it but giving must be from the heart not from my dictates or anyone elses.
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D. Ann Bailey
My Blog Dee's Delights and Delusions
<<<<<<The love of my life - precious Erin!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2008 10:21:00 PM
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dovetales
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Sounds like you have one of the pastors who like all Christians SHOULD, chooses to serve God and do what He says to do within the context of his own church. That of course is wonderful. However this is not the norm in my long experience with churches and/or their pastors. I don't think I recommended giving to secular charities per se, and never do, except for our local Rescue Squad which operates solely by donations and is all volunteer. What I do see is an overwhelming onslaught of NEED all around me, and a community that chooses to act as if it doesn't exist, or if in fact it DOES exist, those in need deserve what they get. And that's what I have seen in the many places I have lived previously, as far as churches go, and as far as those with blessings to spare who somehow believe they deserve them and need not share them. I guess that's why He says many are CALLED but few are chosen. Perhaps its just a matter of whether or not the person being called will accept the call and do what God asks of him. If he is willing, then he is chosen, if not... then what? Anyway the tithe issue is of such minimal importance when compared to very real everyday life and death struggles so many in our world and more and more in our country are being destroyed by.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2008 2:05:01 AM
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Strider33
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My pastor is a human being. So am I. My pastor is subject to all the foibles that human beings are subject to. So am I. My pastor has been redeemed by Jesus Christ. So have I. My pastor has allowed the influence of Jesus Christ to redirect his life. So have I.
The members of my local church are aware of need. So am I. There are needy people in our own congregation. There are needy people in the community. There are needy people in third world countries, where the average income is about a dollar a day, and safe drinking water would be a major material blessing. Members of my church participate in meeting all those needs.
But man does not live by bread alone. In addition to material needs, people in this desperate and failing world have spiritual needs as well. Christ meets those needs. Sometimes, Christ operates through people like the members of my church. We feed each other as well as ourselves in Bible studies and other small gatherings. We feed the community by spreading the Word of God to people in the community who have never heard that word.
We feed some people in the third world, not only with material help, but also with spiritual help. In one of the third world communities our tithes and offerings support, every new adult believer gets a Bible. For many of the people who get one of these Bibles, it's the first book they have ever owned. Some people might consider it frivolous to be giving them Bibles when they still don't have safe drinking water. I would consider it beside the point to meet all their material needs and not meet any of their spiritual needs.
I consider the tithes and offering issue to be of secondary, but not minimal importance. There are a great many people to be reached and to be helped in this world. The fields are white for the harvest, but the workers are few. Sometimes, in some cases, more money can help leverage the efforts of those who have answered the call.
Dovetales, I would hope and pray that you would run across a church where you could feel like one of a community of people who are trying to do the right thing and who are being helped by Christ to do it. I may be reading too much into what you've written. But it sounds as though your experience up till now has been less than satsifying.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2008 2:18:05 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 183
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
If anyone is involved with a church that is actually serving Mammon instead of serving God, that's the time to find another church if reform of your church is impossible.
Here we agree again. God is going to hold "you" and "me" as individuals responsible for our Chruch selection. God has blessed us in this country with many freedoms other countries don't have. Too often we neglect those freedoms because with that freedom comes responsibility. It's so much easier to not be responsible for our own choices and just complain about "others".
It's not just a matter of selecting a church. It's also a matter of making a difference within the church you've selected. Changing churches should be a last resort, not the first thing one tries.
There are a great many churches that a believer should not leave, but that require a lot of reform before they can truly be about God's work. There are NO churches in my experience that are completely free from troubled people and interpersonal issues. People who are expecting a church where everyone is close to perfect are expecting too much. You work with the people you've got, unless reform is impossible.
There's a little bit of doggerel verse from Colonial New England that might be relevant here:
quote:
To live above, with saints we love
Will certainly be glory.
To live below, with saints we know,
Well, that's another story!
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2008 11:24:14 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 597
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
God told the Church to pay thier pastor a double portion is they were hard workers.
Please provide the scripture (from any translation) that says to provide a double 'portion' to 'pastors'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
And as much as it may hurt in these tough economic times to invest in the Kingdom I have found that when giving God as the Holy Spirit leads me, that I have never been short, NOT EVEN ONCE. Praise be to God!
I double that!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If anything, Christ raised the bar for our giving back from the wealth He has entrusted us with as stewards.
God's stewardship principles have never changed. He's never raised them!
quote:
. . . you never gave me any scripture that says that is how God expects us to give normally and locally. Some talk, but no scripture. The only place I've seen that as a guideline has been to foreign missions.
Jimbo,
Are you aware of how Israel gave at the times when they were not under the tithing law?(Exodus 35) Are you aware how Jesus ministry on earth was supported?(Luke 8:1-3) Does scriptures show that Spirit-led giving was prohibited from giving locally?
Maybe the reason why you don't see local spirit-led giving in the new testament is because they weren't so focused on their own needs. Kind of makes sense: spirit-led / unselfish giving 
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 4:58:53 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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What do you think about this verse as to paying tithes -
It has to do with Mal 3:11 "and i will rebuke the devourer for your sakes"..
so if you dont pay tithes, will God send a destroyer?
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Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 12:32:50 PM
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rolling
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Good luck in finding a N.T. style gathering in Omaha minus the titles, tithes, and tears...yours.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 2:47:35 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
What do you think about this verse as to paying tithes -
It has to do with Mal 3:11 "and i will rebuke the devourer for your sakes"..
so if you dont pay tithes, will God send a destroyer?
From the way I have always understood that verse, is that, everything we have anyway, belongs to God, it isnt really ours to begin with. God is our source to all our resources, and we are suppose to pay tithes on our earnings, 10%. And what if we dont, is our money cursed? Ive often thought about that, and to be honest, Im not real sure. I have heard different views on this.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 3:12:13 AM
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Ichiban
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I don't know about *cursed money*. I'm sure Bill Gates hasn't tithed recently.
I do know that God blesses the faithful.
You reap what you sow.
If you can't give 10% of your finances what make syou think you can give 100% to God?
What other cliche' line could I use?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 12:37:33 PM
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dwain
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From my little world, I have seen God use $ sometimes 7x, depending on exchange rate. 1 peso in mexico = 7 pesos in USA
Also, it is neat to see how the first couple of "blind" tithes or offerings may
not bring a monetary return, the discipline of learning- that God blesses the faithful, and you reap what you sow, % wise for the body of Christ is truth.
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Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2008 5:25:38 PM
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CarlaJames
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Let me start off by saying I HATE THESE ONE STOP THREADS!!! So much gets lost in them. I have a tithing question that changes the subject a little and I hope someone will give me their thoughts.
My parents live on about 900 a month SSI checks. That pays their bills and buys one week worth of food. So for 3 weeks out of the month it's up to me to take care of their needs. I have brothers who throw in 20 here and there, but nothing significant. Some can't while some just won't.
Anyway...I've been tithing my 10% since Jan and have been blessed with not one problem during this economic hard time. But sometimes I feel guilty. We tithe usually 100 dollars a week, sometimes more sometimes less. My parents could really use that money and it could change their lives.
How do you think God would feel about me giving it to them instead or atleast half to them? I've prayed about it, but still don't know which direction to take. It's not about the money, it's about where to put the money...my parents or church.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2008 5:43:14 PM
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jbbaab44
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1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 8:43:23 AM
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Strider33
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God bless you for taking care of your parents needs. 1 Timothy 5:8 probably does apply here. There is lots more scripture to guide you.
What I think about how God might feel is not as relevant as what God tells you directly. I could be leading you to the right or to the left. Pray. Listen. Read god's word. Apply.
How do you tell the difference between your parents' basic necessities and things would be nice to have, could change their lives, but are in the wanna have category instead of the gotta have category? How much of your tithing money goes into changing people's lives?
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2008 9:31:15 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I've prayed about it, but still don't know which direction to take.
Talk to your pastor and your parents about this. God uses these people to help us know his will and he uses scritpture.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2008 9:37:11 AM
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P31W
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
And as much as it may hurt in these tough economic times to invest in the Kingdom I have found that when giving God as the Holy Spirit leads me, that I have never been short, NOT EVEN ONCE. Praise be to God!
I double that!!
Hey Soxfan,
I saw this post when it was first posted and it has stayed on my mind. I want you to know that "I" don't agree with the poster who responded to you. I believe you are telling us the truth.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/27/2008 6:33:07 PM
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rolling
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Gal.3:13 'Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.'
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 1:01:56 AM
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StrongWisdom
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quote:
Anyway...I've been tithing my 10% since Jan and have been blessed with not one problem during this economic hard time. But sometimes I feel guilty. We tithe usually 100 dollars a week, sometimes more sometimes less. My parents could really use that money and it could change their lives.
I also have similar feelings. I battle feelings of guilt and disappointment when I don't tithe to the church, even though I helped someone else.
A few times this month I have given money to help individuals buy food. Hunger is a big matter of the heart for me. But, in this process, it seems that I have sacrificed the tithe. I am also a faithful giver to World Vision for child sponsorships, and sometimes, I find myself continually giving to WV over the tithe. There mission is also my heart.
I feel that if it is not going to myself, but helping people to live and survive...is that not still a kingdom offerring? If you don't tithe to a church, does self-sacrifice justify your offering to somewhere else?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 2:56:00 PM
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AbbyGrace
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I have a question, that sometimes confuses me, so maybe someone will have Scripture on this. I believe in paying tithes, 10%...and if I dont, I feel guilty and horrible about it.
So, here is the question, If we give more than 10%, is that an offering? If we give to someone in need, the homeless or anyone else that maybe in need...isnt that an offering?
An offering cant substitute a tithe can it? And this is not a question for a debate or argument, its a question that I have always had, and have heard different opinions on, but no direct answer too. So, if anyone can help me with this...Thank you.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 9:12:40 AM
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Eutychus
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Abby, I think it has to do with your commitment to tithe. I committed to return 10% of my gross income to the Lord through my local church. If I were to trim part of that to give to anoter ministry, I personally would not feel that I have met my commitment to the Lord. Therefore, if I feel prompted to give more than 10% to my local church or to another ministry, then it will be an offering beyond my tithe.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 12:03:44 AM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Abby, I think it has to do with your commitment to tithe. I committed to return 10% of my gross income to the Lord through my local church. If I were to trim part of that to give to anoter ministry, I personally would not feel that I have met my commitment to the Lord. Therefore, if I feel prompted to give more than 10% to my local church or to another ministry, then it will be an offering beyond my tithe.
I see what your saying, and understand, but not sure that I agree....the Bible states that your tithe should go to the storehouse that feeds you, so if you wanted to split the tither for 2 churches, as long as the 10% is paid in full, than I believe the tithe is paid. But thats just me, Im not saying that your wrong, I just view it differently.
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Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
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) and I knew that I was a FOOL if I went home and told my parents... 
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