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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 10:31:12 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
what i was trying to say about the witnesses worshipping the same jesus is that there is only the one jesus. This is one thing the whole world seems to acknowledge whether they want to or not, jesus is just to big. I just dont see the logic just because they differ in not following the trinity that this somehow changes anything. After all theyre acknowledging jesus compared to an atheist that says all religions are just stupid.
Please read the following slowly... for it is has been said in this thread specifically to you by different people in different ways:
If I believe with all of my heart that Jesus is my savior. But the Jesus I believe in is a guy that works at the Taco-Bell down at the local mall food court.
Do you believe I am saved? That my faith is valid?
Yes or no.
They take the name and stuff it with a lie, rendering it a completely different thing.
So please answer my question - yes or no. Is my sincere faith in Jesus that works at Taco-Bell and has three kids valid for salvation?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 10:34:40 AM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
So please answer my question - yes or no. Is my sincere faith in Jesus that works at Taco-Bell and has three kids valid for salvation?
Hey Suess.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 10:45:10 AM
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tomhillbilly
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no earthless you're faith in the guy at taco bell with three kids wouldnt be valid for salvation. I would add that depending on how you treat this person may very well effect your salvation though. when the books are open on judgement day im assuming every man will have to give account for his or her actions.
using a guy at taco bell as an example of comparison to jehovas witnesses possible mistake is a bit of a stretch though wouldnt you agree
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 10:52:18 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
no earthless you're faith in the guy at taco bell with three kids wouldnt be valid for salvation.
Bingo! You're absolutely correct. It wouldn't be valid no matter how sincere my faith was. You can be sincere about something but be sincerely wrong.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I would add that depending on how you treat this person may very well effect your salvation though.
Biblically speaking? No. My salvation is wholly dependent on Jesus Christ and what He completed on the cross with His precious shed blood.
My salvation is not something I worked for or merited.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
using a guy at taco bell as an example of comparison to jehovas witnesses possible mistake is a bit of a stretch though wouldnt you agree
No, it is actually a dead on example. They are two entirely different definitions. And it is not a "possible" mistake.
Even the staunchest atheist scholar who knows the Bible will agree that the JW Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible are two entirely different things.
Another simple question for you tomhillbilly - Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God for all of mankind?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 10:59:26 AM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I would add that depending on how you treat this person may very well effect your salvation though.
Biblically speaking? No. My salvation is wholly dependent on Jesus Christ and what He completed on the cross with His precious shed blood.
My salvation is not something I worked for or merited.
Wonder what Matthew chapter 25 means, biblically speaking of course?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 11:05:02 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Wonder what Matthew chapter 25 means, biblically speaking of course?
Praise Jesus that because of Him - I will be counted as one of the sheep.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 11:07:02 AM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Wonder what Matthew chapter 25 means, biblically speaking of course?
Praise Jesus that because of Him - I will be counted as one of the sheep.
LOL. Read it again. Slowly.
Well, nevermind. This is the wrong thread for that.
I believe we can still choose to make wrong choices even AFTER salvation, and can STILL be held accountable.
But again, wrong thread.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 11:14:31 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Wonder what Matthew chapter 25 means, biblically speaking of course?
Praise Jesus that because of Him - I will be counted as one of the sheep.
LOL. Read it again. Slowly.
Well, nevermind. This is the wrong thread for that.
I believe we can still choose to make wrong choices even AFTER salvation, and can STILL be held accountable.
But again, wrong thread.
Just one last post about that and we can either leave it be or do another thread..
Can we make wrong choices after salvation? YES! I make mistakes every single day.
Do we reap the consequences of bad choices, sins, etc.. after salvation? YES!
Cyanide is the same for the Christian or the agnostic...
I hope I clarified my post a little more.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 11:14:54 AM
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tomhillbilly
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yalls using computer tricks against me. how do i quote people like you in my posts.
why wont anyone address my arguments about the second greatest commandment of the law or the book of james?
I believe this is the "all i gotta do is believe" thing ive heard from alotta christians. Then what though, we sprout little pink wings and fly away? No, we're still here and our actions do matter as written in revelations chapter 20 regarding the books being opened and every man judged according to their works.
Godsmusic id be happy to hear your thoughts on matthew chapter 25
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 11:24:55 AM
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earthless
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Tom,
Can you please answer my questions to you found in my last response to you?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 12:03:40 PM
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tomhillbilly
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sorry i didnt see any questions in your last post to me earthless. ive been trying my best to answer everyones questions.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 12:08:16 PM
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tomhillbilly
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i will add that as far as Jehovas witnesses and any other groups im not gonna go as far as setting myself up as judge. "none come unto the Father but by me" is clearly saying that jesus is the judge of who is worth for Gods kingdom. Im just gonna leave it to him and not let some "wierd" doctrines or beliefs lead me to the judgng position.
We are to discern...not judge, that is not our right
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 1:04:48 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
what i was trying to say about the witnesses worshipping the same jesus is that there is only the one jesus. This is one thing the whole world seems to acknowledge whether they want to or not, jesus is just to big. I just dont see the logic just because they differ in not following the trinity that this somehow changes anything. After all theyre acknowledging jesus compared to an atheist that says all religions are just stupid.
Let me ask you a question. If I build a robot. A remarkably lifelike robot, capable of speech and movement. Say I built the robot to look and sound exactly like George W. Bush. If I sit down and have a meal with this robot, would it then be true to claim that I had dined with the President of the United States? Can my robot declare war, and command US troops, using executive privilege? Does my hypothetical robot have the same authority that the man I copied currently has?
Also, could you give me your understanding of this verse? (feel free to include commentary on the passage as a whole, just make sure you comment on this verse particularly)
John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
quote:
why wont anyone address my arguments about the second greatest commandment of the law or the book of james?
Because you haven't made any arguments relevant to the discussion. Love your neighbor has no direct application to the identity of Jesus Christ, nor does it have anything to do with how we are saved. Same goes for James, which you haven't mentioned specifically, just indirectly referenced.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 1:51:55 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
sorry i didnt see any questions in your last post to me earthless. ive been trying my best to answer everyones questions.
Here is the context and the actual question is in bold:
No, it is actually a dead on example. They are two entirely different definitions. And it is not a "possible" mistake.
Even the staunchest atheist scholar who knows the Bible will agree that the JW Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible are two entirely different things.
Another simple question for you tomhillbilly - Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God for all of mankind?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 4:43:15 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruthie
Their faith is mindbogglingly strong but mistaken. I'm not even going to dwell on the brainwashing and isolation that goes on.
Now that I've tasted freedom, I cannot imagine going back.
Exactly, they are a bonafide cult. Praise Jesus (the real One!) that you have left the Watchtower organization.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 4:52:10 PM
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tomhillbilly
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earthless yes i would go along with the bible being Gods word for all mankind. Its just that if people make a mistake here and there i dont wanna be to hard on em. It may very well be that jesus judges them more worthy for Gods kingdom than me and many others.
Figments my arguments have been relevant to the discussion and i have mentioned the book of james. these arguments were made regarding the jehovas witnesses being accused of "working their way to heaven". I was also trying to explain the dofference in the way we live and good deeds, particularly those done for selfish reasons. It would seem there is alot of confusion in this area.
ok john 8:24 is it- my understanding is if they didnt believe and have the change ofheart necessary, they would continue in sin their whole life
hello ruthie- i understand what you are saying about th witnesses. i have talked here about what the witnesses told me themselves, so why shouldnt i believe them? If you havent followed this whole thread i will repeat if you would like. If the angel thing is true and they dont tell you about it till later then thats another story.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 4:53:13 PM
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tomhillbilly
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oh were you a jehovas witness at one point ruthie?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 5:47:04 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
earthless yes i would go along with the bible being Gods word for all mankind.
Then you must recognize that their Jesus is FALSE.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Its just that if people make a mistake here and there i dont wanna be to hard on em. It may very well be that jesus judges them more worthy for Gods kingdom than me and many others.
No one is telling you to judge individuals. But we are called to judge teachings, claims, etc in light of Scripture and the JW's teachings/claims are false.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
If the angel thing is true and they dont tell you about it till later then thats another story.
Jehovah Witnesses teaching that Jesus is just an angel is true. That is what they believe and teach. It is not an "if".
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 5:55:05 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
It may very well be that jesus judges them more worthy for Gods kingdom than me and many others.
NO, certainly not, because they reject the real Jesus. They have invented a new jesus, a fake.
The Messiah came to save us, That's Jesus. They reject the Messiah.
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Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 5:58:18 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
We are to discern...not judge, that is not our right
So if someone teaches you about a fake Jesus would you be able to discern the difference?
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 6:02:28 PM
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Josh4LinC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
figmentpez i never said that certain verses conflict with christian doctrine
godsmusic yes i wish to defend them as far as personal freedom and religious freedoms same as anyone. what i was doing more in this case was explaining why i understand their conflicting views on trinity.
No one is denying personal and/or religious freedom to anyone here. Just as God allows man to choose or reject Him, so we, also, have no problem with others freely choosing what faith or philosophy they will put their hope and faith in. That being said, we also are free to put our faith in God and His Word.
Furthermore, we deem it our duty to defend our faith and carefully study the scriptures which are good for teaching doctrine. There is only one path whereby we receive forgiveness of our sins and ultimately the hope of eternal life as indicated by the Bible:
quote:
In Matthew 7:15, Jesus says,
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."
and He also says in Matthew 7:13,
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. "
To deny the divinity of Jesus is to deny the efficacy of his death as atonement for our sins. Only God could become a man; be faced with temptation; be sinless; and bear the sin of mankind in His death. Jesus also said that He had the power to lay down his life, and He had the power to take it up again. No prophet ever claimed this power as theirs. Jesus definitely made this assertion:
quote:
In John 10: 14 - 18, Jesus says:
14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This command I have received from My Father.
In conclusion, we do not deny other people and groups the right to exercise their freedom to believe what they choose. We do, however, guard against false teachings and are careful to associate ourselves with groups that subscribe to said false teachings. While there are some doctrinal issues that the Church still debates (Election/Free Will, End Times, modes of administering baptism, etc.), there are definite issues that the majority of the Christian community agree cannot be compromised. To stray from any of the core doctrine is to essentially deny Christ. A good general overview of the core beliefs that fit into the non-compromise category can be found in the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. The world may paint a broad picture of what it means to be Christian, but the Word of God paints a very narrow picture.
P.S. The Bible makes very clear that good works are a product of the saving grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Works are not a means to salvation as groups like Jehovah's Witnesses teach. That is another key distinction. If anyone thinks that they can be saved by works, they haven't read what the Bible has to say about the value of our works as attempts to gain salvation:
quote:
Isaiah 64:6 says,
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
< Message edited by Josh4LinC -- 11/17/2008 6:19:02 PM >
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 6:44:15 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Figments my arguments have been relevant to the discussion and i have mentioned the book of james. these arguments were made regarding the jehovas witnesses being accused of "working their way to heaven". I was also trying to explain the dofference in the way we live and good deeds, particularly those done for selfish reasons. It would seem there is alot of confusion in this area.
You first mentioned the second greatest commandment in regards to the trinity. You didn't mention it in the context of works based salvation. This did indeed lead to confusion. I'll leave works based salvation by the wayside, and please stop trying to bring that into discussion on the identity of the true God and distinguishing Him from the false christs that the apostles warn us of.
quote:
ok john 8:24 is it- my understanding is if they didnt believe and have the change ofheart necessary, they would continue in sin their whole life
Didn't believe what? Could you please be very specific in what they did not believe?
Also, why did you ignore my other question? Would a robotic facsimile of George W. Bush actually be the President of the United States? Would a copy have the same authority as the original?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 8:30:22 AM
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tomhillbilly
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ok figmentpez- no alright, a robot fake george bush wouldnt axeshually be president of the united states.No a copy wouldnt have the same authority as the original.
im not sure i can put this right but ill try best i can.
In light of all the animosity towards the witnesses, particularly,it seems,regarding the trinity its hard for me to believe that certain claims are unfounded. I dont mean to doubt you folks credibility, but surely you all can understand the difference between what witnesses have told me personally as opposed to hear-say.
I cant agree with the whole "different jesus" idea people keep saying here. Wouldnt it be more correct to describe them as having a wrong understaning of jesus' true position and identity?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 8:37:20 AM
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earthless
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Tom,
I don't even know what to say anymore to you, seriously. We have outlined what their Jesus is and if you have read your Bible like you have said you have - then I cannot understand why you don't see how they are polar opposites. How their Jesus is an anti-Christ and blasphemous version of the real Jesus revealed in the Bible.
Perhaps we haven't been clear on something or we're missing the mark. Please let me know what it is.
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