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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 8:53:23 AM
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tomhillbilly
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its really simple. jesus is still the same whether or not people choose to follo him or not. The fact that they claim that jesus is not God but Gods representative does not make another jesus or make jesus a fake.
It is a different view on jesus and his position. I would ask this question: is not the position of jesus mediator between God and man for reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins? This is the impression i got and it seems the same as what the vast majority of christians hold as the cornerstone of their faith as well.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 9:19:19 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
its really simple. jesus is still the same whether or not people choose to follo him or not. The fact that they claim that jesus is not God but Gods representative does not make another jesus or make jesus a fake.
Yesterday you said something entirely different. You acknowledged that a fake Jesus (the one with three kids who works at your local Taco-Bell) would not be able to save me from my sins.. but yet now you're saying something that contradicts Jesus' own words "who do you say I am?".
Beliefs matter and if you believe in a fake Jesus, in a fake God, in a fake/counterfeit Gospel.. you remain dead in your sins (generally speaking).
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
It is a different view on jesus and his position. I would ask this question: is not the position of jesus mediator between God and man for reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins? This is the impression i got and it seems the same as what the vast majority of christians hold as the cornerstone of their faith as well.
Jehovah Witnesses are not Christians.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 9:27:07 AM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
is not the position of jesus mediator between God and man for reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins?
Yes, and this is possible because Jesus IS God. If you believe in a jesus who is not God then it would be impossible for him to be mediator, a reconciliation or anything with any power.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 9:29:39 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wild-Rose
quote:
is not the position of jesus mediator between God and man for reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins?
Yes, and this is possible because Jesus IS God. If you believe in a jesus who is not God then it would be impossible for him to be mediator, a reconciliation or anything with any power.
Such a simple fact..
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 9:55:25 AM
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Ruthie
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Yes, Tomhillbilly, I was a JW. And You are very very wrong in your assertion that their claim does not make another Jesus.
I will spell it out to you.
Jehovah's Witnesses will not admit it until you are well into the cult that their Jesus didn't die for everyone. JW Jesus only died for the little flock, the 144,000. This is the reason that the vast majority of JWs have never participated in the Lord's Supper. The Lord's Supper isn't for us only for the little flock.
They believe that JW Jesus didn't die for you or me. They believe that our only hope of salvation is obedience to the Watchtower Organization. This means that Salvation based solely on works because JW Jesus's blood doesn't cover us.
This is why a JW reads the approved study material on Monday, goes to Bible Study on Tuesday, studies the watchtower on Wednesday, goes to Kingdom Hall on Thursday, studies the watchtower some more on Friday, and Kingdom Hall on Sunday then spends time going House To House afterwards. They have to or they won't be saved.
Because JW Jesus DID NOT die for everyone. The Real Jesus DIED FOR EVERYONE.
How can you even conceive that these two are similar? They are nothing alike.
A JW should tell you that the trinity is a false doctrine. (Caveat: If they think that they can get you into the Kingdom Hall, they may lie. Its okay to lie to outsiders for the good of the Organization.)
If the Trinity is false, then our Jesus cannot be correct because his nature would be completely wrong (Jesus ≠ God). If the Trinity is true, then their Jesus cannot be correct because his nature would be completely wrong (Jesus ≠ Angel).
If you believe in a Jesus whose nature is completely wrong, then you believe in a False Messiah. There is no salvation from a False Messiah.
So, tomhillbilly, both Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses disagree with you. Our two Jesuses are not the same.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 10:09:47 AM
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tomhillbilly
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one more question then: I have heard often that God has always existed and is unchanging. Does this not figure in to why some might not understand the trinity?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 10:28:35 AM
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whitepoodle
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quote:
But I guess my main question is what is so evil about not believing Christ and God are one,but rather that they are simply Father and Son? I know it's a false belief but I really don't think it will send you to Hell.
BUT,what may endanger one's soul is being a 'witness' for JEHOVAH instead of for CHRIST,as if God is the one you go through for salvation.
They have a different view of Christ which is that his sacrifice makes up for Adam's sin and now it's up to us. So thinking that Christ is not divine starts them on a road to other errors and then they claim that their organization is the only true church.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 10:33:34 AM
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whitepoodle
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quote:
one more question then: I have heard often that God has always existed and is unchanging. Does this not figure in to why some might not understand the trinity?
The trinity is a deduction from scripture and is not explicitly stated and is hard to understand. Even trinitarians have different ideas of what the trinity actually is since having three divine persons yet one God is hard to reconcile. Although i'm a trinitarian IMO if this issue was so critical i think God would have clearly spelled it out so IMO it's not a salvation issue.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 12:42:34 PM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
its really simple. Jesus is still the same whether or not people choose to follow him or not. The fact that they claim that Jesus is not God but Gods representative does not make another jests or make Jesus a fake.
It is a different view on Jesus and his position. I would ask this question: is not the position of Jesus mediator between God and man for reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins? This is the impression i got and it seems the same as what the vast majority of Christians hold as the cornerstone of their faith as well.
Now I think I see what you are misunderstanding. No one here is saying the JW view on Jesus makes the real Jesus fake. The Jesus they believe in is fake and thus cannot save them. Their faith is vain.
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The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 1:01:52 PM
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Roberta_
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A few months back I went with my neice to a garage sale. She saw a children's bible stories book and asked me to get it for her. I bought it, but I'm glad that I read it before giving it to her. All I read was the first page on Creation. I think I threw the book away. I'm not sure what bible they got that story out of, but it's not the same Bible I read.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 1:33:16 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whitepoodle
...So thinking that Christ is not divine starts them on a road to other errors and then they claim that their organization is the only true church.
No, thinking Christ is not divine is the loss of salvation, period.
Jesus told the pharisees that "before Abraham was, I am". Pharisees could not accept that, thus rejecting their own soul's salvation.
How could you think that think their organization would be greater error than believing that Christ was not divine?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 1:48:14 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
ok figmentpez- no alright, a robot fake george bush wouldnt axeshually be president of the united states.No a copy wouldnt have the same authority as the original.
Why, then, do you claim that the JW's copy that they call "jesus christ" has the same authority as the original?
Also, please answer my other question. Regarding John 8 "Didn't believe what? Could you please be very specific in what they did not believe?"
quote:
regarding the trinity its hard for me to believe that certain claims are unfounded.
Please be specific. What claims do you find to be unfounded?
quote:
I cant agree with the whole "different jesus" idea people keep saying here. Wouldnt it be more correct to describe them as having a wrong understaning of jesus' true position and identity?
Who is someone if not their identity? If JWs cannot identify Jesus Christ for who He is, why should we think that they can identify Him at all? If JWs don't acknowledge that Jesus Christ is LORD, why should we believe that they know the LORD at all?
quote:
its really simple. jesus is still the same whether or not people choose to follo him or not. The fact that they claim that jesus is not God but Gods representative does not make another jesus or make jesus a fake.
Let me ask you about another group and their beliefs. If a group claims that "jesus christ" did not come in the flesh, and instead was just a spirit who made it look like he was human, would you still claim that they are preaching the true christ?
If it is impossible to preach a false christ, then why does the Bible warn believers against turning aside and following them?
Matthew 24:24
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:22
for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
quote:
one more question then: I have heard often that God has always existed and is unchanging. Does this not figure in to why some might not understand the trinity?
Well, many don't believe in the trinity because they don't believe that Jesus Christ is eternally begotten of the Father, that He has always been the Son of God. However, other than refusing to believe in God's eternal nature, no, I don't think that it explains why anyone rejects proper Christian doctrine.
EDIT: I leave tomorrow for a week long trip to my cousin's wedding. I'm not sure when I'll be posting again. I might find time later today, I might not. I will catch up on this thread when I return.
< Message edited by figmentPez -- 11/18/2008 1:59:47 PM >
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I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 1:57:00 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whitepoodle
The trinity is a deduction from scripture and is not explicitly stated and is hard to understand. Even trinitarians have different ideas of what the trinity actually is since having three divine persons yet one God is hard to reconcile. Although i'm a trinitarian IMO if this issue was so critical i think God would have clearly spelled it out so IMO it's not a salvation issue.
Trinitarian doctrine is as explicit in scripture as the diety of Christ. You won't find a simple verse that says "God is triune" but you won't find a verse that says, verbatim, "Jesus Christ is God", either. However, just as the Bible is crystal clear that Jesus Christ really is God, the eternal Son of God, begotten before the world began, we can be equally certain that God is triune, and such belief is necessary to believe in the true God.
One God externally existing as three persons may be difficult to intellectually understand, but it is not hard to reconcile with scripture. In fact, it is the only view consistent with scripture. It is any other belief that is not only difficult to reconcile with the whole of the Bible, but absolutely impossible to reconcile.
The only times I have found Christians to have fundamentally different views on trinitarian doctrine is when they have not studied scripture, but just taken up the first metaphor to come along and not bothered to check to see if it's true.
As to the critical nature of believing God's triune nature, the earliest creeds are primarily about trinitarian doctrine. The Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, the Chalcedonian Creed and more are all focused on God's revealed nature as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. From the very beginning of the Christian church, believers have considered that the most important things to learn and believe from scripture are about God's revealed nature. Indeed, this is perfectly in line with Jesus Christ's teachings. He has said that we must believe that He is who He claims to be, if we are to be saved. His question of "Who do you say that the Son of Man is?" held such an amazingly important answer that Peter had to have it revealed to him from heaven to get it correct.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 9:30:18 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Thi being said, why is it so unreasonable to say its the same jesus just with a different interpretation of position.
Truth is sometimes "unreasonable" for some. But should we lie and ignore the truth in the name of being "reasonable"?
Is it not unreasonable to actually do what you're asking? It is.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Whats the point in going around calling everyone possible some sort of false teacher.
The only ones being labeled as such are those whose own teachings and claims are labeled as such by the Word of God, the Bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Do all of these things not fall under Gods grace as well?
God's grace is truly grace for the repentant, not for those that freely reject His grace (Jesus).
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 10:06:08 PM
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tomhillbilly
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Everyone remembers im sure when a certain pharisee in acts advised the others to leave the followers of christ alone. i may not be able to give the exact quote from memory. I believe the intent was that if they are not of God they will not prosper, but if they are of God you may find yourself in conflict with God.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 10:08:00 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I've still got a copy of the new world translation of the holy scriptures. Like I've said before, my extent of study with Jehovah's witnesses was three trips to their church,one of which was their annual communion. also i sat in on three-six book studies. Their version of the bible seemed to be pretty much the same as the 'ol king James that me and Paul use. I've heard of a bunch of different versions of the bible, and theirs like the others,I'm assuming, have the stories of the same people, same God and Jesus, same gospel, same geographic locations, same everything as far as i could tell.
Thi being said, why is it so unreasonable to say its the same Jesus just with a different interpretation of position. Whats the point in going around calling everyone possible some sort of false teacher. Do all of these things not fall under Gods grace as well?
Well, what I saw in that children's book didn't line up with the Bible.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 10:31:15 PM
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tomhillbilly
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roberta you didnt say specifically, this was a jehovas witness childrens book?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/18/2008 10:32:51 PM
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Roberta_
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Yes, it was. I wondered why it seemed so strange. I looked in the back and saw the watchtower info.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/19/2008 8:13:02 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Everyone remembers im sure when a certain pharisee in acts advised the others to leave the followers of christ alone. i may not be able to give the exact quote from memory. I believe the intent was that if they are not of God they will not prosper, but if they are of God you may find yourself in conflict with God.
That is taking one verse and trying to make it walk on all fours. I just had this conversation on this a few days ago here in one of the other threads.
That belief is erroneous - otherwise nothing secular would prosper, which we know is not true.
Scripture is clear that God uses false prophets/falsehoods to test people.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/19/2008 9:42:37 AM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Everyone remembers im sure when a certain pharisee in acts advised the others to leave the followers of christ alone. i may not be able to give the exact quote from memory. I believe the intent was that if they are not of God they will not prosper, but if they are of God you may find yourself in conflict with God.
Are you still defending this cult?
If you are thinking there is a chance they may be of God after all that has been exposed of them clearly on here, then what else could be said?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/19/2008 10:25:40 AM
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Ruthie
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Tomhillbilly,
I am rather tired of being ignored. I have clearly stated why the differences in interpretation are so important. I have clearly stated what the consequences of their position are. I grew up a Jehovah's Witness before I became Christian. I know of what I speak.
I will say it one more time.
According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus did NOT DIE FOR EVERYONE. In other words, the JW position is that there's a very very very good chance that Jesus's blood doesn't cover you.
According to Christianity, Jesus DID DIE FOR EVERYONE. In other words, the Christian position is that Jesus's blood is guaranteed to cover you.
According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, salvation is through Works achieved through Obedience to the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society. This means that you have to earn salvation through obeying an organization that regularly contradicts itself.
According to Christianity, salvation is through Faith in the Death and Resurrection of Christ and His substitutionary sacrifice. This means that God himself has extended salvation as a gift of grace and you need only have faith that God will keep His promise.
So the logical result is that the JW version of Jesus only cared enough to cover 144000 people with His blood. The rest of us are left to work hard to earn salvation. JW Jehovah doesn't actually give a flying flip about you.
By contrast, the Christian version of Jesus cared enough to cover us all with His blood. The Real Deal loved the world so much that He gave His only Begotten Son so that all might not die but have eternal life.
How can you look at these vastly divergent views and with a straight face say that their version of Jesus is valid? Its insulting to Our Lord and Saviour.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/19/2008 12:49:55 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Everyone remembers im sure when a certain pharisee in acts advised the others to leave the followers of christ alone. i may not be able to give the exact quote from memory. I believe the intent was that if they are not of God they will not prosper, but if they are of God you may find yourself in conflict with God.
That is taking one verse and trying to make it walk on all fours. I just had this conversation on this a few days ago here in one of the other threads.
That belief is erroneous - otherwise nothing secular would prosper, which we know is not true.
Scripture is clear that God uses false prophets/falsehoods to test people.
I think but I don't really know what was in the mind of Gamaliel. but what is recorded of what he said. He was going by what had happen to another person who called himself a messiah and his followers bit the dust. In fact he mentions the person by name. I believe that because of what Jesus and the earlier followers of him went through and the signs that they were doing also lead him to say that chances are this is of God.
Now the thing with JW"S are that they have memory lost problem. Like how many times is Jesus going to return and what date are they going to use. For now they can't remember those bad predictions in history.
They also when ask, who interpreted the scriptures? They will not give the names or any creditals to whom was the main cast were. They have great one now it's been drop out of the sky and Jehovah has written it himself.
The other beef I have with them is that they pick the coldest time of the year to come to my house. Either I have to let them or freeze outside or have my door open. Just recently they have now just drop off their literature. Which then I proceed to put it into my recycle stack of papers.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/19/2008 11:26:20 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2020
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Everyone remembers im sure when a certain pharisee in acts advised the others to leave the followers of christ alone. i may not be able to give the exact quote from memory. I believe the intent was that if they are not of God they will not prosper, but if they are of God you may find yourself in conflict with God.
This is an interesting argument, and I agree that as Christians, we should do our best to live and let live with other religions and views that conflict with ours. It is difficult to state with certainty exactly how God defines faith in Christ for the purposes of salvation, although it is easy to state with certainty that if you believe that Christ is Lord (I believe Paul meant this as the Hebrew word for Yahweh, used exclusively to refer to God), you are saved. (Romans 10:9)
However, it is possible to rule out the notion that sin carries infinite consequences and that Jesus was finite. If our sins carry such consequences, there must be an infinite sacrifice to pay for it. Thus, it makes sense to believe that Jesus constitutes that infinite sacrifice, and the simplest explanation (and the explanation that is claimed all throughout John) is that he is God and therefore infinite.
The view that sin carries infinite consequences isn't consistent with the notion of a finite Jesus as payment for them, and if the JWs believe both of those things, their beliefs aren't consistent.
I'd like to add in that I think it's really healthy for the Church when people question and discuss the validity of traditional Christian doctrine, and the fact that a debate was resolved back in the fifth century doesn't mean we aren't allowed to have it again. It's important for us to understand where these beliefs come from and why they make sense, so we know that they weren't just made up by a bunch of 70 year-old men who wanted to tell others what to believe. There might even be new arguments that weren't brought up previously, and addressing these arguments ultimately helps make traditional doctrine stronger.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/19/2008 11:44:52 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
It is difficult to state with certainty exactly how God defines faith in Christ for the purposes of salvation
wrong
1 John 4:1 - 3 (ESV) 1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/20/2008 10:48:16 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2020
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
1 John 4:1 - 3 (ESV) 1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
But the JWs translate that verse differently, and perhaps there is a 1 in 1000 chance that they translate it the way God wants them to. Figuring out who isn't saved is something that's best left to God rather than our tiny little minds and is an area that I, personally, choose not to step into. You are free to do so; I hope, for your sake, that you are not wrong on this matter.
However, our tiny little minds are capable of proving that the JW's position makes no logical sense, regardless of how they read the Bible. In other words, if a translation or interpretation of the Bible defies logic and reason, there is a good chance that it is a bad translation or interpretation. This happens to be the case with the JW's NWT.
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