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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 4:40:56 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3750
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Concerning the current discussion on a believer turned atheist dying saved or not...
Here's where the correct interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 applies:
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God promises to finish what he starts. He's patient with believers and will bring them to repentance.
If the person in the scenario mentioned above does not return to the faith, then that person did not have it to begin with.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 5:28:16 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
.....one can die an atheist and have eternal life
Why not? I dont personally know people that died in unbelief but i yet to see any Biblical support of the idea that this situation cant possibly ,never ,ever happen, like that one cant die in certain sin.
Theos, you will die in some kind of unrepentant sin, unless you plan to reach sinless perfection in this life.
Odel, why offer the strawman?
If one is living in continued unrepentant sin and are completely not acknowledging Christ in their life, when they die, they will go to Hell. They do not believe in Christ as their Savior.
The conclusion to this pov is that one is then saved by their continued belief. Do you really subscribe to that pov? If it is, please provide your support from the Bible.
quote:
If I die right now, I am assured of eternal life because of my faith and trust in Christ.
No!!! You are assured of eternal life, because when you believed, God gave you eternal life. You "ain't" going to heaven "because of my faith". Boy, does that sound man-centered!
quote:
I may have unrepentant sin, but it's not a pattern. The former example is a pattern of unbelief.
Can you see into the future? What about 10 years from now?
quote:
Do you see the difference?
I hope you do.
quote:
FG tramples the cross with his belief that one can once believe and be saved regardless of patterns of sin in their life.
You will need to explain how that "tramples the cross". You use dramatic words and phrases, but let's focus on Biblical words and phrases.
Further, I take my cues from Jesus, who clearly equated believing with being saved when He spoke of Satan stealing the Word from the hearts of the first soil, "lest they believe and be saved". That is so clear as to require no interpretation. Then, in the very next breath, He describes the second soil as having "believed for a while".
Now, where in Scripture do you find any reference to having to believe for any length of time for "salvation" to stick?
If you have any, please share.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 5:29:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I understand your point, TC, but you made a statement one can die an atheist and have eternal life and said it cant happen.
I said - it can. Prove that it cant.
I am guessing that he will respond with, "prove that it can". 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 5:31:41 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Concerning the current discussion on a believer turned atheist dying saved or not...
Here's where the correct interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 applies:
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God promises to finish what he starts. He's patient with believers and will bring them to repentance.
Please explain how you get that from 2 Pet 3:9? It speaks of His wanting, not causing. The difference is huge. Please elaborate.
quote:
If the person in the scenario mentioned above does not return to the faith, then that person did not have it to begin with.
How do you get that from 2 Pet 3:9?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 5:41:18 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3750
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Concerning the current discussion on a believer turned atheist dying saved or not...
Here's where the correct interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 applies:
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God promises to finish what he starts. He's patient with believers and will bring them to repentance.
Please explain how you get that from 2 Pet 3:9? It speaks of His wanting, not causing. The difference is huge. Please elaborate.
quote:
If the person in the scenario mentioned above does not return to the faith, then that person did not have it to begin with.
How do you get that from 2 Pet 3:9?
I get it from the text prior to 2 Pet 3:9 as well as 2 Pet 3:9 and in conjunction with other verses throughout the Bible...
God finishes what he starts. He's promised us that, and we know that He's faithful. He's patient with us but ultimately sees to it that His will manifests itself. His will in this particular context is that all believers will come to repentance, and we know from elsewhere that it's the Holy Spirit that works within us to comform us to His will.
If the person doesn't repent of his/her atheism, then they weren't saved to begin with. Otherwise, God would bring that person to repentance.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 6:54:11 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Concerning the current discussion on a believer turned atheist dying saved or not...
Here's where the correct interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 applies:
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God promises to finish what he starts. He's patient with believers and will bring them to repentance.
Please explain how you get that from 2 Pet 3:9? It speaks of His wanting, not causing. The difference is huge. Please elaborate.
quote:
If the person in the scenario mentioned above does not return to the faith, then that person did not have it to begin with.
How do you get that from 2 Pet 3:9?
I get it from the text prior to 2 Pet 3:9 as well as 2 Pet 3:9 and in conjunction with other verses throughout the Bible...
My request was for exactly what verses. To just say "from text prior..." and "other verses" isn't at all helpful. I want to know [y]why you maintain the pov you do. Please provide verses to support your pov.
quote:
God finishes what he starts. He's promised us that, and we know that He's faithful. He's patient with us but ultimately sees to it that His will manifests itself. His will in this particular context is that all believers will come to repentance, and we know from elsewhere that it's the Holy Spirit that works within us to comform us to His will.
I believe the context of finishing what He has started is in reference to our salvation. That is the same as eternal security. That's not the debate. I hope you know that I am as strong a proponent of eternal security as you will find.
quote:
If the person doesn't repent of his/her atheism, then they weren't saved to begin with.
That's what I'm talking about. Where exactly do you find that in the Bible? If you can't show me, you cannot support your claim.
quote:
Otherwise, God would bring that person to repentance.
I'm aware of your pov that God is the One who causes everything. You need to provide clear support for that notion before I can accept it.
I have changed my pov on other things that have been presented to me from Scripture (not related to this thread). After nearly 3 yrs posting, I've yet had anyone convince me that God causes anyone to believe in His Son. He commands, invites, etc, but there is no support that He causes it.
I'm still looking for that support. Until then, my pov is consistent with what I read in the Bible. Obviously, I read the Word differently than calvinists do. But, don't let that stop you. If you have support, I'd like to see it. Then I'll be able to understand why you think the way you do.
If your support is credible and I can't defend against it, I'll accept it as true.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 7:11:37 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
.....one can die an atheist and have eternal life
Why not? I dont personally know people that died in unbelief but i yet to see any Biblical support of the idea that this situation cant possibly ,never ,ever happen, like that one cant die in certain sin.
Theos, you will die in some kind of unrepentant sin, unless you plan to reach sinless perfection in this life.
Odel, why offer the strawman?
If one is living in continued unrepentant sin and are completely not acknowledging Christ in their life, when they die, they will go to Hell. They do not believe in Christ as their Savior.
The conclusion to this pov is that one is then saved by their continued belief. Do you really subscribe to that pov? If it is, please provide your support from the Bible.
Support has been provided continually, but you have the wrong glasses on to see it.
Jesus talked about this when he talked about people following him.
James talks about this when he says that faith is proven by works.
Even Paul talks about this in Galatians 5 when he speaks of the fruit of the spirit being a result of our faith.
quote:
quote:
If I die right now, I am assured of eternal life because of my faith and trust in Christ.
No!!! You are assured of eternal life, because when you believed, God gave you eternal life. You "ain't" going to heaven "because of my faith". Boy, does that sound man-centered!
A little high-strung, are we?
Not man-centered at all. You're the one who emphasizes "my faith" all the time, not me.
My faith and trust in Christ comes from God, the originator of all things.
quote:
quote:
I may have unrepentant sin, but it's not a pattern. The former example is a pattern of unbelief.
Can you see into the future? What about 10 years from now?
If I fall into a pattern of sin, I hope and pray that God will sustain my faith and bring me back to Him as He has promised He would.
quote:
quote:
Do you see the difference?
I hope you do.
quote:
FG tramples the cross with his belief that one can once believe and be saved regardless of patterns of sin in their life.
You will need to explain how that "tramples the cross". You use dramatic words and phrases, but let's focus on Biblical words and phrases.
Further, I take my cues from Jesus, who clearly equated believing with being saved when He spoke of Satan stealing the Word from the hearts of the first soil, "lest they believe and be saved". That is so clear as to require no interpretation. Then, in the very next breath, He describes the second soil as having "believed for a while".
Now, where in Scripture do you find any reference to having to believe for any length of time for "salvation" to stick?
If you have any, please share.
Ah yes, you're whole complete misinterpretation of the soils again.
Must we go through this again?
My point about the trampling the cross is that you make it irrelevant by saying that one can believe and walk away from the faith and still be saved. THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL. It's been proven, but you're too stubborn to admit it.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 7:27:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
The conclusion to this pov is that one is then saved by their continued belief. Do you really subscribe to that pov? If it is, please provide your support from the Bible.
Support has been provided continually, but you have the wrong glasses on to see it.
So, you really do think that it is your continued faith that saves you! wow. And you call the FW pov man-centered.
quote:
Jesus talked about this when he talked about people following him.
Without any support from Scripture, why should I believe you?
quote:
James talks about this when he says that faith is proven by works.
While it does, works are also quite deceiving, as Del as amply shown.
btw, the opposite, lack of works doesn't prove there was no initial faith, as you presume. Since Jesus equated believing with being saved, and then in the next breath tells us the second soil believed for a while, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
quote:
Even Paul talks about this in Galatians 5 when he speaks of the fruit of the spirit being a result of our faith.
OK. No problem. But that isn't the debate, now, is it. The issue is those who have believed, produced works for a while, then quit. What do you do with those? You discount their faith, yet without any support from Scripture.
quote:
quote:
quote:
If I die right now, I am assured of eternal life because of my faith and trust in Christ.
No!!! You are assured of eternal life, because when you believed, God gave you eternal life. You "ain't" going to heaven "because of my faith". Boy, does that sound man-centered!
A little high-strung, are we?
I'm trying to get your attention by highlighting some words. Now, how about responding to my charge that you sound very man-centered.
quote:
Not man-centered at all. You're the one who emphasizes "my faith" all the time, not me.
What did you just claim? Let me quote you:
quote:
If I die right now, I am assured of eternal life because of my faith and trust in Christ.
I underlined the man-centered part, since you seem to miss it.
As well, you missed my point. You are going to heaven because God gave you eternal life, that's why. Not because of your "continued faith", as you presume.
quote:
My faith and trust in Christ comes from God, the originator of all things.
The result of that notion is that those whose faith has failed didn't get theirs from God, huh? Again, without clear support from Scripture teaching that, you don't have any support.
quote:
If I fall into a pattern of sin, I hope and pray that God will sustain my faith and bring me back to Him as He has promised He would.
Can you show me any verses where God has promised to sustain your faith?
quote:
quote:
quote:
FG tramples the cross with his belief that one can once believe and be saved regardless of patterns of sin in their life.
You will need to explain how that "tramples the cross". You use dramatic words and phrases, but let's focus on Biblical words and phrases.
Further, I take my cues from Jesus, who clearly equated believing with being saved when He spoke of Satan stealing the Word from the hearts of the first soil, "lest they believe and be saved". That is so clear as to require no interpretation. Then, in the very next breath, He describes the second soil as having "believed for a while".
Now, where in Scripture do you find any reference to having to believe for any length of time for "salvation" to stick?
If you have any, please share.
Ah yes, you're whole complete misinterpretation of the soils again.
Must we go through this again?
Quite a "comeback", no? I read the text as it is. Since Jesus equated believing with being saved, why did He state the second soil believed, if they hadn't really believed. It would have been just as easy to claim they "only thought they believed" or some other such wording, as calvinists seem to interp the verse. Yet, He clearly said they believed. That is what you cannot deal with, because it contradicts your pov. So you claim "what He really meant by what He said. I just claim what He said.
quote:
My point about the trampling the cross is that you make it irrelevant by saying that one can believe and walk away from the faith and still be saved.
The Bible speaks many times of people walking away, abandoning, and wandering from the faith, as well as some shipwrecking the faith of others, etc. Yet, where is there clear statements that those who do weren't saved to begin with? You have no support from Scripture.
quote:
THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL.
I have quoted Jesus, yet you twist what He said into something He NEVER said. Your charge is empty.
quote:
It's been proven, but you're too stubborn to admit it.
See above.
{edited to fix quote boxes}
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 11/18/2008 8:43:54 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 8:56:31 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
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You have no support from scripture...blah, blah, blah.
Well, neither do you, so get over it. I'm done!
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 9:06:47 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You have no support from scripture...blah, blah, blah.
Well, neither do you, so get over it. I'm done!
I've shown you my support. Most of it is direct quotes from Scripture. Such as Luke 8:12,13.
I'm waiting for clear statements from Scripture that support your pov.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 9:46:07 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1783
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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rwe2156,
quote:
I am trying to understand the examples of election in the Bible -
were people chosen primarily for service or purpose, not simply salvation?
It is highly unlikely that we will find un-saved people going around preaching the gospel.
Before Paul would be willing to preach the gospel dont you think he had to be saved first?
Repentance was his turning away from persecuting Jesus Christ and standing for Him.
Jesus says anyone that is not for me is against me.
rwe2156,
Here we have a ministry of purpose;
1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
How is it they have the ministry of preaching the gospel? It says is through God's mercy that they have this ministry. What do you think came first....their salvation or the ministry of preaching the gospel? Do you think they started preaching the gospel while they were still un-repentant, un-saved, and anti-Christ?
That would make no sense.
The text continues to explain their purpose and it will also explain how they were saved while others are not.
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Unbelievers cannot see the gospel and that is the end of the story.
Paul can minister (his purpose in preaching the gospel) but he knows exactly where the power lies.
Unbelievers are held in bondage no matter how many times and how many pastors claim that people have a free-will.......unbelievers just cannot see.
So far we know that Paul has a ministry (purpose) and when he ministers to unbelievers they cannot see the gospel even though he preaches it to them.
Look at what he preaches;
5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
Their ministry was all because of His mercy and they are servants for Jesus' sake.........not for the sake of all unbelievers. Some are going to perish. Some will not perish.
We are given the clear facts on how unbelievers cannot see (Paul was once as such) and we are told exactly how those in darkness see.
6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
We do not preach ourselves. No one is going to get me to either.
I preach that He saved me. He caused me......one that could not see to see. I preach that He did it.
He saved me and now by His mercy I have this ministry.
I can preach the gospel knowing that it will always fall on deaf ears unless God does His work.
I dont have to worry about that. I dont have to be anxious for anything. I do not have to distort anything. I dont have to tickle ears and make things more appealing or user friendly. I do not lose heart even when I see a person that does not turn to Jesus Christ.
I know that God has everything under control and when I say that I mean it.
I have complete faith in Him and that He knows exactly what He is doing.
The text continues;
7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
That is where the power is from.
That is the power of conversion.
You can think it stems from ourselves and what we do (repent, faith, works....add anything at all to the list) and I dont.
Through God's mercy we have this ministry.......unbelievers cannot see the light of the gospel.......we do not preach ourselves.......God made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.......we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
rwe2156,
I probably just do not have anything for you.
We are probably just going to go around in circles.
I cannot be convinced of anything other that what convinces me.
Take care buddy, 
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 12:20:31 AM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3750
Joined: 3/30/2007
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FG, I have time to address this part first, the rest later in the week.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If the person doesn't repent of his/her atheism, then they weren't saved to begin with.
quote:
That's what I'm talking about. Where exactly do you find that in the Bible? If you can't show me, you cannot support your claim.
Please Read 1 John. It will show you.
Here are some snippets:
Chapter 2
18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.
Those who "went out from us" are false teachers. Church membership does not guarantee our salvation. What guarantees it is the seal of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit abides in us, reveals to us the truth, and protects us.
Chapter 3
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Do you agree that atheistic thinking is sinful? That to deny God's existence is a sin? If someone continues to assert an atheistic belief and value system, then they're not born of God.
19By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
If someone was born again, the Holy Spirit would convict the person if they drifted away from the truth into atheistic thinking. Plain and simple. If their hearts aren't condemned, then they aren't saved.
Chapter 4
6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
An atheist isn't going to listen to and believe the truth.
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
Again, God abides in us if we believe. Do you really think that the Holy Spirit won't be grieved if someone drifts away from the truth? If the Holy Spirit indwells a person, the Holy Spirit will convict the person and return them to the truth.
Chapter 5
6This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
An atheist believes God to be a lie/a liar. The Holy Spirit cannot speak that about himself. If the Spirit is inside a person, then the atheistic waywardness cannot continue.
18We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
Belief in atheism is sin.
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
We believe. We know him who is true. We are in him who is true.
Atheists don't believe. They do not know him who is true. They are not in him who is true.
Therefore, someone who originally claims to be saved, lapses into atheism, and never repents was never saved to begin with.
Honestly, I'm not ever sure that's it's possible for someone truly saved to even lapse into atheistic thinking...
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 5:07:59 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You have no support from scripture...blah, blah, blah.
Well, neither do you, so get over it. I'm done!
I've shown you my support. Most of it is direct quotes from Scripture. Such as Luke 8:12,13.
I'm waiting for clear statements from Scripture that support your pov.
To be saved, we must believe, but that does not mean that Luke 8:13 is saying that that soil was saved.
You are committing eisegesis when you insert YOUR own pov in there.
I have given scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture.
But you refuse to see. If you want, you can do the search yourself, instead of being a jerk about it.
I just read this morning about avoiding foolish questions and arguments, so with that, I am finally though with you. This only goes around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around.
Have fun promoting your heresies.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 5:25:47 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
quote:
The OT saints were not born again or regenerated, yet they were saved based
on their faith. The loved God, followed God, believed God, but were not born again.
The Spirit and power of God was and is always working. The heart of a king is in the hands of the Lord and He directs the heart which way He chooses. The king of Egypt is a prime example of God directing the heart even if the Bible does not speak specifically on every individual person that ever lived.
John the baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb and I would not assume he was seeking God at the time.
Take care,
KJB
The above quote never fails to surprise me - that the OT saints were not "born again". Scripture is clear, if the Spirit does not dwell within you - you are not saved.
So, either there were no OT saints or the Scripture is wrong...or more likely the poster is wrong.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The scriptural proof is there - that the OT saints were born again and regenerated - yet some still deny it.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 5:26:54 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The problem for me is this: Lets say I am responsible for the people being
deaf and have the power to make them hear. Now for some unknown reason
I have decided to never heal them, but still issue the call "come to me".
On top of all this, I then blame them for not coming to me!
That's God's method of reaching the elect - the call goes out to all indiscriminately.
I totally disagree. A call cannot be indiscriminate if it only applies to a chosen few. God says it is when He says "many are called but few are chosen".
quote:
You're not telling the whole story. Yes, the call goes out, but only the sheep can respond. I was explaining God's method of reaching the elect. Of course, only the sheep will respond - that goes without saying - or at least should.
quote:
If I yell out "FIRE!" in Spanish, only those who understand Spanish can respond.
So it is not an "indiscriminate" call, as you put it. Of course the call itself is indiscriminate - everyone hears it without regard to race, nationality, etc.
quote:
quote:
God "blames" us for our sins. Correct - we are blamed for our sins, not our natural tendency or aptitude to sin.
The only reason we are not blameless has to do with who is saved.
Problem is with who the "we" is. Again, obviously the "we" are the sheep - the elect.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 5:28:00 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Only you can reject what has been made known, manifested to you, FG. Only you can disbelieve what has been made known, unveiled, made bare and disclosed to you, FG. But for the rest of the world, all will believe what has been divinely personally revealed to them.
Romans 1 clearly indicates that even though God has made evident to everyone divine Truth about Himself, so that His attributes, power, and nature are clearly seen, leaving man without excuse, your conclusion is false. If the "rest of the world" does believe what has been divinely personally revealed to them, then Paul was wrong in what he wrote.
You misunderstand "personally". The splendor of creation which is evidence that God exists is not a "personal" revelation. What Peter received was personally revealed to him. So, neither Paul or Christ are wrong.
Besides, it's not really very relevant since there were many unsaved in both the OT and NT who believe God existed. They never got this additional "light" you always speak about.
quote:
No, not at all. It is you guys who like to use the pejorative word "optional", not I. For salvation, service, obedience, etc is not part of the deal. iow, we are saved through faith, and works plays no part.
For experiential sanctification, service, obedience, etc is absolutely necessary. Do you see the difference? Though, you're changing your rules in the middle of the game, we'll play. All this "new" statement means is that "experiential sanctification" is optional. And, of course, that view contradicts Scripture.
quote:
Please read Acts 11:13,14 with me here:
"And he (Cornelius) reported to us (Peter and crew) how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, send to Joppa, and have Simon , who is also called Peter brought here; and he (Peter) shall speak words (the gospel) to you by which you WILL be SAVED, you and all your household." So much for your analysis. He was not saved until Peter brought him the gospel.
He was regenerated at the beginning of the chapter - which means he was indwelled by the Holy Spirit. God opened his eyes, ears and heart so that by the end of the chapter when Peter preached - he believed.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 5:30:31 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
.....one can die an atheist and have eternal life
Why not? I dont personally know people that died in unbelief but i yet to see any Biblical support of the idea that this situation cant possibly ,never ,ever happen, like that one cant die in certain sin.
Theos, you will die in some kind of unrepentant sin, unless you plan to reach sinless perfection in this life.
That's not the point, though. There is no scriptural basis to say that a born again believer can denounce God, die and be received into heaven....none.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 6:05:32 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
quote:
The OT saints were not born again or regenerated, yet they were saved based
on their faith. The loved God, followed God, believed God, but were not born again.
The Spirit and power of God was and is always working. The heart of a king is in the hands of the Lord and He directs the heart which way He chooses. The king of Egypt is a prime example of God directing the heart even if the Bible does not speak specifically on every individual person that ever lived.
John the baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb and I would not assume he was seeking God at the time.
Take care,
KJB
The above quote never fails to surprise me - that the OT saints were not "born again". Scripture is clear, if the Spirit does not dwell within you - you are not saved.
So, either there were no OT saints or the Scripture is wrong...or more likely the poster is wrong.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The scriptural proof is there - that the OT saints were born again and regenerated - yet some still deny it.
Let's look at what Jesus said about being born again:
(Joh 3:3 ESV) Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
(Joh 3:4 ESV) Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
(Joh 3:5 ESV) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:6 ESV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(Joh 3:7 ESV) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
(Joh 3:8 ESV) The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
(Joh 3:9 ESV) Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?"
(Joh 3:10 ESV) Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
Nicodemus was a teacher of Israel, and Jesus reproves him for not knowing about being born again, so obviously OT saints were born again.
By being born again, therefore, one receives faith to believe as Eph. 2:8 details.
Hebrews 11 gives a list of those OT Saints who were born again with faith.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 6:30:50 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The Gentiles are heirs to the promises of Israel.
There is a universality in this verse which must be rejected by Calvinism.
The verse doesn't require the rejection of election by Calvies because of what's written previously in Ephesians. God's simply revealing that the elect will include Gentiles.
I understand why you would say this.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 6:34:17 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
2 Thess 2:13 is the only verse in the Bible that speaks to being chosen for salvation.
And the means of that election is listed: through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.
It is THROUGH belief we are chosen?....................interesting......
You didn't know that??
Sarcasm, Free, saracasm.
I have been arguing against "saved to believe" for a while now.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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