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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 7:19:44 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I understand your point, TC, but you made a statement one can die an atheist and have eternal life and said it cant happen.
I said - it can. Prove that it cant.
Prove it??? Really, Odeliya.
A lost person can also say "Prove Jesus rose from the dead!"
Let me ask:
You think transformation is temporary?
Sanctification is simply a voluntary reformation of one's morals and attitudes
so we can be good little boys and girls? You deny the power of God if you believe this!
An encounter with God is not permanently life-altering?
The Holy Spirit can be exorcised? If we are not "filled" doesn't mean we are empty, dear.
What you are saying is God will abandon one of his own, because the work
of God in salvation is not temporary.
The very fact a believe perseveres is evidence he received something from God, not man!
Your view would also have us jumping in and out of sanctification
as if it was checking in and out of a rehab center or reform school
as if our sanctification is based totally on us, not God!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 7:26:08 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
RWE,
quote:
Paul's conversion cannot be used as a pattern for all men.
(1 Timothy 1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Paul's conversion is a legitimate example of all conversions.
In what way?
So God hit me over head with a 4X4 and I surrendered - doest that mean
I should think all people are saved that way?
Of course not. Seriously - I think I know what you mean here.
Where in the Bible does it speak of Paul repenting, TDD?
See, I think repentance comes before the light, so I can't see it like you do.
But that verse truly does bless me, brother.
The mercy Paul receive certainly is a pattern - an undeniable pattern
by which God makes salvation available to all who believe.
My point about Paul is God saved him for a purpose - to be the greatest
evangelist church has or will ever know. And God did it to show his
power and glory the most by choosing a Christian-hating Pharisee.
God Bless.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 7:29:21 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Concerning the current discussion on a believer turned atheist dying saved or not...
Here's where the correct interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 applies:
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God promises to finish what he starts. He's patient with believers and will bring them to repentance.
If the person in the scenario mentioned above does not return to the faith, then that person did not have it to begin with.
Or better yet, Romans 8 - we are predestined.
I don't think this means God drags a blaspheming unbeliever who
"once believed" across the finish line, do you?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 7:52:39 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
FREEGRACE:
The conclusion to this pov is that one is then saved by their continued belief.
No, Free, our continued faith is proof we have received something!
The gospel doesn't stop at justification, Free.
We do not persuade a man to say "I believe" and pronounce him saved, can we?
But this is exactly what our evangelism does!
We spend 15 or 20 minutes with someone counselling them about their
supposed "conversion" and the next 30 years trying to disciple
a goat into a sheep! THEY NEVER KNEW HIM! Yeah, its the old tired
"they were never saved to begin with" cliche, I know....
WADR, your view is a recipe for the carnal Christians we see today.
Churches splitting, the lost not attracted, the saved not growing.....
Bible illiteracy, undiscipled children, 50% divorce in the church,
43% voted for abortion-loving pres. Why are we just as divorced,
just as addicted, just as fat and happy as the rest of the world, Free?
We're not "aliens" - far from it, my good friend. (I'm speaking generically).
The Bible is clear - God WANTS us to know we are saved - Agree?
What can we base our assurance on - the sincerity of a decision we made in the past,
of the ongoing fellowship and growing holiness we are experiencING, and knowing
is it not our own works, discipline, or will power, but "God in us"?
The evidence of our salvation is a transformed life - a permanently
transformed life.
Romans 8 tells us we are predestined to christlikeness. And its in this life,
because glorification is not christlikeness.
Phil 1:6 tells us it is God who is the catalyst and I submit anything God
does in re-creating a man cannot be undone.
Try building a church on this doctrine. I'll tell you one thing you'll never
see - church discipline or any kind of membership covenant - what for -
I'll just call "I'm OK, You're OK" Doctrine of Voluntary Sanctification.
Am I close, Theos?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 7:58:34 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
FG, I have time to address this part first, the rest later in the week.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If the person doesn't repent of his/her atheism, then they weren't saved to begin with.
quote:
That's what I'm talking about. Where exactly do you find that in the Bible? If you can't show me, you cannot support your claim.
Please Read 1 John. It will show you.
Here are some snippets:
Chapter 2
18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.
Those who "went out from us" are false teachers. Church membership does not guarantee our salvation. What guarantees it is the seal of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit abides in us, reveals to us the truth, and protects us.
I agree they were false teachers. That indicates that they never believed in the first place. That is not the category under discussion.
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Chapter 3
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Do you agree that atheistic thinking is sinful? That to deny God's existence is a sin? If someone continues to assert an atheistic belief and value system, then they're not born of God.
What you are missing is the person who DID believe in Christ, and later, due to whatever, lost faith. This passage does not address that.
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19By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
If someone was born again, the Holy Spirit would convict the person if they drifted away from the truth into atheistic thinking. Plain and simple. If their hearts aren't condemned, then they aren't saved.
However, the Bible speaks plainly about people who have "seared their conscience", which is akin to resisting the Holy Spirit, which is also spoken of plainly.
quote:
Chapter 4
6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
An atheist isn't going to listen to and believe the truth.
I am speaking of those who have initially believed in Christ, been born again, and then lost their faith, such as Charles Templeton, the evangelist who helped Billy Graham at the start of his ministry. At some point, because he couldn't reconcile some things in Scripture, left the faith and ended up saying there was no God. yet, he fully understood the gospel, preached it to many crowds, and many people were saved.
My point is this: he initially believed the gospel and preached it. But, when he couldn't reconcile some things, his faith wavered, and then quit.
quote:
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
Again, God abides in us if we believe. Do you really think that the Holy Spirit won't be grieved if someone drifts away from the truth? If the Holy Spirit indwells a person, the Holy Spirit will convict the person and return them to the truth.
Yes, the Holy Spirit indwells every believer, and IS grieved when one drifts from the faith. But, because people can "sear their conscience" as 1 Tim 4:2 indicates, and the Holy Spirit can be resisted, as Acts 7:51 says, there is no guarantee that such people will always repent.
quote:
Chapter 5
6This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
An atheist believes God to be a lie/a liar. The Holy Spirit cannot speak that about himself. If the Spirit is inside a person, then the atheistic waywardness cannot continue.
No, an atheist denies the existence of God, not that "God is a liar", which would be recognition of His existence. Your conclusion must ignore the searing of conscience and the resisting of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
18We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
Belief in atheism is sin.
No argument with that. All sin is sin. I'm not sure what your point is. We all "continue to sin". Even those who mistakenly believe in "sinless perfection". In fact, they will use this verse as a proof text for that. So, whatever it means, it does NOT mean a believer will not "continue in sin", since we all keep on sinning, right? 
quote:
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
We believe. We know him who is true. We are in him who is true.
Atheists don't believe. They do not know him who is true. They are not in him who is true.
You are ignoring the person who has already believed in Christ, and later on, due to life's circumstances, whatever, lost faith, such as Charles Templeton did.
quote:
Therefore, someone who originally claims to be saved, lapses into atheism, and never repents was never saved to begin with.
I'm not talking about what one "claims". I'm talking about those who DID believe, something you can't even accept as true. Yet, none of these verses prove your point, as I've shown.
quote:
Honestly, I'm not ever sure that's it's possible for someone truly saved to even lapse into atheistic thinking...
Just read Luke 8:12 and then 13. Jesus called it "believed for a while". How is that not clear?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:01:25 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
FREEGRACE:
OK. No problem. But that isn't the debate, now, is it. The issue is those who have
believed, produced works for a while, then quit. What do you do with those?
You discount their faith, yet without any support from Scripture.
Why did Jesus go after the lost sheep?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:02:38 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You have no support from scripture...blah, blah, blah.
Well, neither do you, so get over it. I'm done!
quote:
OK. No problem. But that isn't the debate, now, is it. The issue is those who have believed, produced works for a while, then quit. What do you do with those? You discount their faith, yet without any support from Scripture. Didn't I warn you, TC?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:03:51 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You have no support from scripture...blah, blah, blah.
Well, neither do you, so get over it. I'm done!
I've shown you my support. Most of it is direct quotes from Scripture. Such as Luke 8:12,13.
I'm waiting for clear statements from Scripture that support your pov.
To be saved, we must believe, but that does not mean that Luke 8:13 is saying that that soil was saved.
Jesus SAID they believed. Apparently that is some "secret code word" to you. Why? They believed. Deal with that. Jesus said so.
quote:
You are committing eisegesis when you insert YOUR own pov in there.
Now that's interesting. I'm committing "eisegesis" because I am taking His literal words at FACE VALUE. I suggest you review the word.
You are the one claiming that when Jesus said "they believed" He really meant they didn't believe. Now, that is eisegesis.
quote:
But you refuse to see. If you want, you can do the search yourself, instead of being a jerk about it.
I am taking Jesus' words at face value. If that is being a "jerk" as you unkindly put it, that's OK with me. What do you call someone who takes Jesus' words and twists them into something He didn't say?
quote:
I just read this morning about avoiding foolish questions and arguments, so with that, I am finally though with you.
I have no problem with that. You are free to post to whomever you want to and to avoid posting to whomever you want to.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:11:14 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
quote:
I am trying to understand the examples of election in the Bible -
were people chosen primarily for service or purpose, not simply salvation?
It is highly unlikely that we will find un-saved people going around preaching the gospel.
Oh, I know that, KJ.
The greatest evangelist the world has ever known was made for it and chosen for it.
The father of all nations, Abraham God made for this purpose.
The greatest king Israel ever had was created for this.
There are different elections for different reasons, as Free said in Post 4445.
Christ was elect, as were all the OT saints.....and, I submit, all believers.
quote:
Unbelievers cannot see the gospel and that is the end of the story.
Why did Paul reason with the Jews and Greeks?
Why did he say "I would become all things to all men"?
Why does the Bible use the word "persuade" several times in describing
Paul delivering the gospel message?
Isn't that what we try to do? Persuade, reason, become all things?
Isn't that what the minstry of the Gospel is, KJ?
I submit the goal is more than simply getting the word out to a "reluctant" elect.
None of those people I mentioned were saved that way, were they?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:12:28 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Only you can reject what has been made known, manifested to you, FG. Only you can disbelieve what has been made known, unveiled, made bare and disclosed to you, FG. But for the rest of the world, all will believe what has been divinely personally revealed to them.
Romans 1 clearly indicates that even though God has made evident to everyone divine Truth about Himself, so that His attributes, power, and nature are clearly seen, leaving man without excuse, your conclusion is false. If the "rest of the world" does believe what has been divinely personally revealed to them, then Paul was wrong in what he wrote.
You misunderstand "personally". The splendor of creation which is evidence that God exists is not a "personal" revelation.
God is a Person. So whatever He reveals about Himself is personal. I think you misunderstand "personally".
quote:
What Peter received was personally revealed to him. So, neither Paul or Christ are wrong.
I never said Paul or Christ were wrong.
quote:
Besides, it's not really very relevant since there were many unsaved in both the OT and NT who believe God existed. They never got this additional "light" you always speak about.
Were any of them seeking God? It isn't about just believing that God exists. What does Romans 1 say about that knowledge? It says "even thought they KNEW God, they neither honored Him as God, nor were thankful". That is the issue.
quote:
quote:
No, not at all. It is you guys who like to use the pejorative word "optional", not I. For salvation, service, obedience, etc is not part of the deal. iow, we are saved through faith, and works plays no part.
For experiential sanctification, service, obedience, etc is absolutely necessary. Do you see the difference?
Though, you're changing your rules in the middle of the game, we'll play. All this "new" statement means is that "experiential sanctification" is optional. And, of course, that view contradicts Scripture.
You used my quote, but obviously ignored what I posted. You keep claiming my pov is "optional" in spite of my posting above: "for experiential sancification, service, obedience, etc, IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY." So, you need to pay attention. I have just said that for spiritual growth, it is NECESSARY. Why isn't that clear to you?
quote:
quote:
Please read Acts 11:13,14 with me here:
"And he (Cornelius) reported to us (Peter and crew) how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, send to Joppa, and have Simon , who is also called Peter brought here; and he (Peter) shall speak words (the gospel) to you by which you WILL be SAVED, you and all your household." So much for your analysis. He was not saved until Peter brought him the gospel.
He was regenerated at the beginning of the chapter - which means he was indwelled by the Holy Spirit. God opened his eyes, ears and heart so that by the end of the chapter when Peter preached - he believed.
If he was regenerated at the beginning, and indwelt already, he didn't need to be saved. Why don't you deal with that? The angel told him that Peter would bring him a message whereby he would be saved.
So, the angel contradicts you. He was not saved. Therefore, he couldn't be regenerated. All who are regenerated are "new creatures in Christ" according to 2 Cor 5:17, and have eternal life. Therefore, only believers can be regenerated. You have the cart several miles before the horse.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:13:18 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Where in the Bible does it speak of Paul repenting, TDD?
See, I think repentance comes before the light, so I can't see it like you do.
19Wherefore, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the
heavenly vision:
But I would put his repenting even earlier when Saul called Jesus Lord.
He never did that before and he wouldn't have done it without Jesus meeting him on the road.
The light had to come first and then he called him Lord.
Anyway
I have enjoyed the exchange between you and KJB.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:14:07 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You have no support from scripture...blah, blah, blah.
Well, neither do you, so get over it. I'm done!
quote:
OK. No problem. But that isn't the debate, now, is it. The issue is those who have believed, produced works for a while, then quit. What do you do with those? You discount their faith, yet without any support from Scripture. Didn't I warn you, TC?
Yeah, why do I continually abuse myself by responding to someone who believes that someone can lose faith and still be saved, especially if having faith is what saves someone. Makes no sense to me, based on what the scripture says.
I'll continue to post passages of scripture in their context, while they can continue to post their single verses out of context and promote their heresy.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:14:50 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
.....one can die an atheist and have eternal life
Why not? I dont personally know people that died in unbelief but i yet to see any Biblical support of the idea that this situation cant possibly ,never ,ever happen, like that one cant die in certain sin.
Theos, you will die in some kind of unrepentant sin, unless you plan to reach sinless perfection in this life.
That's not the point, though. There is no scriptural basis to say that a born again believer can denounce God, die and be received into heaven....none.
The real issue is that there is no Scripture that says that those who have believed and wander from the faith will lose their salvation.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:17:14 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Hebrews 11 gives a list of those OT Saints who were born again with faith.
kelman believes that Cornelius was regenerated at the beginning of Acts 10. That means he was born again, which is another word for being regenerated. Yet, Cornelius didn't believe the gospel until the end of the chapter.
To be accurate, your statement should read, "OT saints who were born again through faith". Not "with".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:23:20 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
FREEGRACE:
For experiential sanctification, service, obedience, etc is absolutely necessary.
Are you implying there is another "non-experiental" sanctification?
We've had this discussion before, rw. Remember the 3 tenses of "salvation"? check out this link for the explanation.
I am quite aware of this - what should be an elementary teaching.
If we receive the Holy Spirit when we are justified (past) then we possess the Holy Spirit while we are being saved (present) and we will still possess the Holy Spirit when we are ultimately glorified (future). That's the only thing that makes us a Christian! And just as no Christian can "unborn" himself, neither is he able to exorcise the Holy Spirit from his being either nor cause God to remove it from him.
Thats a part of our security some will not embrace.
That's how I see it. Lets not debate it -there's no need to get into it, friend.
I was responding to your comment "are you implying there is another "non-experiential" sanctification?" The link describes such "non-experiential" sanctification. What you refer to as the "present" is what I consider our "experiential" sanctification, and is not guaranteed as you and the calvinists think.
We must be filled (controlled) by the Holy Spirit, walk by His means, and not grieve or quench Him to spiritually grow. That is how we experience sanctification during this life. Paul expressed his concern about the Galatian believers' lack of grow in Gal 4:19.
quote:
I would be much more interested in whether anybody can give me just one verse in Scripture that illustrated election to salvation, not purpose.
Doesn't 2 Thess 2:13 fit the bill?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:43:25 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We spend 15 or 20 minutes with someone counselling them about their
supposed "conversion" and the next 30 years trying to disciple
a goat into a sheep! THEY NEVER KNEW HIM! Yeah, its the old tired
"they were never saved to begin with" cliche, I know....
If the gospel was presented accurately to begin with, and the person clearly understands it and believes it, then it is God Alone who pronounces them saved, not us.
quote:
WADR, your view is a recipe for the carnal Christians we see today.
Not my "recipe". You are mixing "apples and oranges". One cannot grow up spiritually until one is a believer. You want to put the cart before the horse. Discipleship is NOT for the lost. Mother Teresa was a disciple and followed the teachings of Jesus, yet J MacArthur wrote in one of his books that she is in hell today. I don't doubt him on that. So, where did her following Jesus get her? Hell. Her problem: she didn't believe the gospel. She believed the RCC. She was deceived by the RCC.
quote:
Churches splitting, the lost not attracted, the saved not growing.....
Bible illiteracy, undiscipled children, 50% divorce in the church,
43% voted for abortion-loving pres. Why are we just as divorced,
just as addicted, just as fat and happy as the rest of the world, Free?
This doesn't come from my pov, as you think. It is the result of pastors failing to teach the deeper doctrines that lead to growth. Most evangelical pastors today and for as long as I can remember seem to stick with just preaching the gospel, iow, how to be saved. Their congregations need to hear all the doctrines that are contained in the epistles. Believers cannot grow when all they hear week after week is how to get saved. There is no growth in that.
Please don't blame the situation in today's church on my pov. I'm the only one on this thread who has continually emphasized the NEED to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to walk by His means, and to stop grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit. How many pastors in evangelical churches preach that, ever? I doubt many. Which explains today's church.
quote:
The Bible is clear - God WANTS us to know we are saved - Agree?
Yes. 1 John 5:13
quote:
What can we base our assurance on - the sincerity of a decision we made in the past, of the ongoing fellowship and growing holiness we are experiencING, and knowing is it not our own works, discipline, or will power, but "God in us"?
We base our assurance on the Word of God and what it says, such as 1 John 5:13. Don't trivialize what you call "sincerity of a decision" in the past. If the person DID believe in Christ, which is the only way to be saved, then they are saved. That is what their assurance must be based on.
Remember, Mother Teresa based her assurance on her works. And where did that get her? Hell, according to MacArthur.
quote:
The evidence of our salvation is a transformed life - a permanently transformed life.
And there are believers who lack such evidence, because they haven't grown spiritually.
What do you do with 1 Tim 5:8? "But if any (believer) provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel (unbeliever)." Those are very strong words. What do they mean to you?
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Romans 8 tells us we are predestined to christlikeness. And its in this life, because glorification is not christlikeness.
Yes, I agree, that is what we are predestined to be. But, without the consistent filling (controlling) of the Holy Spirit, and walking by His means, what does the believer do? Just read Gal 5:16. If we don't walk by His means, we WILL fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That is very clear, and is not being Christlike. That's what is NOT being taught in our churches today. All we have is a bunch of big babies in the congregations, starving for food, and getting only "pablum". Just what the author of Hebrews said in Heb 5:12-14
"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk (pablum) and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe (baby). But solid food is for the mature (grown up), who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."
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Phil 1:6 tells us it is God who is the catalyst and I submit anything God does in re-creating a man cannot be undone.
What do you mean by "re-creating"? If you mean regeneration, I fully agree. Otherwise, I don't know what you mean.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:44:30 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
FREEGRACE:
OK. No problem. But that isn't the debate, now, is it. The issue is those who have
believed, produced works for a while, then quit. What do you do with those?
You discount their faith, yet without any support from Scripture.
Why did Jesus go after the lost sheep?
Because they were lost, as is the whole human race. For whom He died.
But, what does that have to do with the discussion?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:46:10 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
KJB:
I dont have to worry about that. I dont have to be anxious for anything.
I do not have to distort anything. I dont have to tickle ears and make
things more appealing or user friendly. I do not lose heart even when
I see a person that does not turn to Jesus Christ.
See my previous post re: Paul reasoning, persuading, being all things to all men.
I think you should reconsider.
We proclaim to gospel to the lost simply to see who's already saved, KJ?
So how many times, how many ways, how many prayers before
we can see who is been chosen for salvation?
There is no reality to this view and this is certainly not what I see
from Calvinist preachers.
While I agree our purpose is not to extract a decision from a man,
so to, we should not presume he will never believe, nor can we
assume those who come to be saved are ever elect, can we?
On what basis do we "dust off our shoes" and move on brother?
The elect man might simply be refusing and we need to keep hammering away?
Where's irresistible grace in all this? Is it irresistible only when God chooses to
make is so - this "effectual" call you all claim is only "effectual" because the
man relented and repented? This cannot be if God is in control from A to Z.
But it all makes perfect sense if the man is able to repent. Everything Paul
says makes sense if he is preaching to a man with a choice.
There is a reason to "preach as a dying man to dying men" and the
answer is not simply to deliver the message to the ears of the elect!
Why would the elect need convincing if they have no choice, KJ?
God Bless.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:47:58 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You have no support from scripture...blah, blah, blah.
Well, neither do you, so get over it. I'm done!
quote:
OK. No problem. But that isn't the debate, now, is it. The issue is those who have believed, produced works for a while, then quit. What do you do with those? You discount their faith, yet without any support from Scripture. Didn't I warn you, TC?
Yeah, why do I continually abuse myself by responding to someone who believes that someone can lose faith and still be saved, especially if having faith is what saves someone. Makes no sense to me, based on what the scripture says.
The problem with TC, rw, is that he thinks that "having faith" is what saves. I thought all calvinists knew that it is God who saves those who have believed. And He gives eternal life at the moment of belief, so that if later on, they lose their faith, they still have the gift that God gave them.
There is no Scripture that speaks of taking away that gift. If there was, the arminians would be right about loss of salvation.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:50:04 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The problem for me is this: Lets say I am responsible for the people being
deaf and have the power to make them hear. Now for some unknown reason
I have decided to never heal them, but still issue the call "come to me".
On top of all this, I then blame them for not coming to me!
That's God's method of reaching the elect - the call goes out to all indiscriminately.
I totally disagree. A call cannot be indiscriminate if it only applies to a chosen few. God says it is when He says "many are called but few are chosen".
Does the word call = chosen?
quote:
Of course the call itself is indiscriminate - everyone hears it without regard to race, nationality, etc.
Lets be clear - what is the call? I say it is to repent.
If a lost person is spiritually deaf, how can everyone hear it?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:01:30 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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Saving faith:
(Luk 7:44) Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
(Luk 7:45) You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet.
(Luk 7:46) You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.
(Luk 7:47) Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven--for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little."
(Luk 7:48) And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
(Luk 7:49) Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?"
(Luk 7:50) And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
(Act 15:8) And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
(Act 15:9) and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
(Act 26:18) to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
(Rom 4:9) Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
(Jas 2:14) What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:20:11 AM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
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FG,
For the record (not that it is germaine to this discussion) Cornelius was obviously regenerate at the beginning of acts 10 because of the righteousness ascribed to him by the Holy Spirit who does not call sinners righteous under any circumstances. Act 11, "salvation" is not synonymous with "justification" in this context. Salvation as a synonym for justification is a Baptist invention. Savlation includes the entire ordo saludis from effectual call to glorification. Cornelius salvation was simply transferred from the Old to the New Covenant through Christ-instituted baptism, same as those who were baptised by John the Baptist were transferred (Apollos is as good an example as Cornelius). So much for Cornelius.
What concerns me more is this business about atheists going to heaven. That puts this discussion outside Calvinism vs Arminianism. Historically, Arminians and most of there cousins have not been pluralists. Pluralism is heretical. Somebody needs to explain what they're talking about there. I don't want to make an accusation prematurely, but I think I'm hearing a false Gospel.
FG, am I reading your pov correctly, you believe a person can hear the Gospel, respond to it favorably, become an atheist later, but retain the gift of eternal life?
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