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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:52:16 AM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Concerning the current discussion on a believer turned atheist dying saved or not...
Here's where the correct interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 applies:
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God promises to finish what he starts. He's patient with believers and will bring them to repentance.
If the person in the scenario mentioned above does not return to the faith, then that person did not have it to begin with.
Or better yet, Romans 8 - we are predestined.
I don't think this means God drags a blaspheming unbeliever who
"once believed" across the finish line, do you?
Another clincher:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:55:28 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
The problem with TC, rw, is that he thinks that "having faith" is what saves. I thought all calvinists knew that it is God who saves those who have believed. And He gives eternal life at the moment of belief, so that if later on, they lose their faith, they still have the gift that God gave them.
The problem with FG is that he has never heard of mediate means or means of grace or providence. I hear your pumping the "through" argument... "through faith" rather than "by faith". All your doing is adjusting the preposition to suit your grid. Dia is not a pipeline, its a means. Here's a biblical definition which, btw, fits the lexical definition:
Even the righteousness of God which is by (dia) faith of Jesus Christ (genitive: could either mean possessive, i.e. "Jesus's faith" or originating, "the faith that comes from Jesus") unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Romans 3:22
Either way, the dia is defined as not originating with the believer, but with Christ. To trans. dia as "by" is appropriate and that is how it has been historically translated. Later translations often translate "through" which could retain the same meaning "by means of". I don't know why this is commonly done now, but I suspect that an Arminian grid may be leading in the translation sometimes. Maybe not, may be that through is seen to convey more of the "means" meaning that "by" once conveyed.
Whatever may be done with the dia, the contextual definition secures the meaning as "by means of" which is providential.
Excellent post. See my post #5446 for Jesus telling someone that their faith saved them.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 11:19:58 AM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
Excellent post. See my post #5446 for Jesus telling someone that their faith saved them.
Yep. There's nothing wrong with saying that either. Every sensible person who reads that understands both God's use of means and instruments and that those means and instruments belong to and originate from God through Christ. Those who adjust there argument to exclude providence are protecting their grid (pov, paradigm, whatever).
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 12:26:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5958
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From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I understand your point, TC, but you made a statement one can die an atheist and have eternal life and said it cant happen.
I said - it can. Prove that it cant.
The proof that it can't is in the fact that there is a change of heart regarding salvation... A new creature in Christ can no more deny his Master, as one who isn't saved can deny theirs...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 12:44:45 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
FG,
For the record (not that it is germaine to this discussion) Cornelius was obviously regenerate at the beginning of acts 10 because of the righteousness ascribed to him by the Holy Spirit who does not call sinners righteous under any circumstances. Act 11, "salvation" is not synonymous with "justification" in this context. Salvation as a synonym for justification is a Baptist invention. Savlation includes the entire ordo saludis from effectual call to glorification. Cornelius salvation was simply transferred from the Old to the New Covenant through Christ-instituted baptism, same as those who were baptised by John the Baptist were transferred (Apollos is as good an example as Cornelius). So much for Cornelius.
DAWR, so much for your analysis. It is laughable to consider him regenerate at the beginning of Acts 10. If he was, then he was also a "new creature", yet the gospel hadn't been presented to him, which was the point of sending Peter.
The claim that he was saved under OT "rules" meant that even if he died without hearing about the risen Christ, he would have been saved, having believed in the coming Messiah (as all OT saints did).
However, considering the time frame in which we read about him, much more likely he was simply following the Jewish religion of that time, and thinking that good works would save him. Therefore, he was not saved, justified, regenerated, or had eternal life in him at the beginning of Acts 10. He was unregenerate, but actively recognizing God as God (reverence) and praying to Him continually, as any active seeker would.
quote:
What concerns me more is this business about atheists going to heaven. That puts this discussion outside Calvinism vs Arminianism. Historically, Arminians and most of there cousins have not been pluralists. Pluralism is heretical. Somebody needs to explain what they're talking about there. I don't want to make an accusation prematurely, but I think I'm hearing a false Gospel.
What is the gospel? Read the book of John for the true gospel. What was John's purpose in writing it? Jn 20:31 records his purpose:
"but these (signs that Jesus performed in the presence of the multitudes) have been written that you (the reader) may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have (eternal) life in His name."
He wanted people to believe that "Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God", and believing that they would have eternal life.
quote:
FG, am I reading your pov correctly, you believe a person can hear the Gospel, respond to it favorably, become an atheist later, but retain the gift of eternal life?
Yes. Am I reading you correctly, that if one responds favorably to the gospel (for me, that specifically means they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, who died for them on the cross), and later their faith fails, that they forfeit their gift of eternal life?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 12:46:37 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I understand your point, TC, but you made a statement one can die an atheist and have eternal life and said it cant happen.
I said - it can. Prove that it cant.
Nobody has to prove that it can’t. The demand for negative proof is fallacious in the first degree. You speak from your own authority. The burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders. This idea that atheists can go to heaven receives no possible sanction from scripture. Rather it stands in stark contradiction to all understanding of soteriology.
No, it stands in stark contradiction to all understanding of calvinism.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 1:26:21 PM
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HardKnox
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quote:
No, it stands in stark contradiction to all understanding of calvinism.
Yes, it does. It also stands in stark contradiction to orthodox Baptist (SBC and Independent), Methodist, Episcopal, Church of God, Grace Community, Presbyterian, etc. doctrine. It does smell just slightly of Roman Catholic, but even they have a purer Gospel embedded. It certainly is not EOC or Russian Orthodox. In other words, it stands in stark contrast from Christianity.
My favorite Southern Baptist, the late Adrian Rogers said, "The faith that fizzles before the finish had a flaw from the first." It may sound funny, but that is good epistemology and solidly biblical.
FG, you just don't understand Matthew 13 or Romans 10. That's it. Your whole argument from start to finish has been based on loose interpretations. You demand explicit text from us, then give faulty implications (inferences) of a few Bible verses. You have never defended your position. Rave on.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 3:26:54 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2483
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As for others - lovely posts, gentlemen, but spare me the drama.
All the ridiculous things you seem to be accusing my position of have no basis whatsoever, so i wont even address it.
We 've been thru it many times, so outside of HK who is a newbie, and thus us kindly forgiven for now  everybody should know all ins and outs of the debate and not throw the stupid red herrings and strawmen at me.
To the point, please- If Solomon would have died while worshipping other gods he would have been lost?
I agree with FG - seem like you are thinking we sustain out salvation by our own efforts.That is troubling
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 3:33:31 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2483
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Concerning the current discussion on a believer turned atheist dying saved or not...
Here's where the correct interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 applies:
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God promises to finish what he starts. He's patient with believers and will bring them to repentance.
If the person in the scenario mentioned above does not return to the faith, then that person did not have it to begin with.
Or better yet, Romans 8 - we are predestined.
I don't think this means God drags a blaspheming unbeliever who
"once believed" across the finish line, do you?
Another clincher:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Neither works unfortunately.
Shema - your example doesnt apply here because, look: People in the verse are NOT BELIEVERS. They are in danger of perishing. Believers OTOH , cant perish ( lose salvation )
So for your verse to prove what you want it to prove you have to dismiss your belief in OSAS and say that believers can actually lose salvation.
HK- your verse doesnt apply here either because it talks about people that never believed in the first place. We are debating the people that were actual belivers, born again.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 3:39:06 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Concerning the current discussion on a believer turned atheist dying saved or not...
Here's where the correct interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 applies:
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God promises to finish what he starts. He's patient with believers and will bring them to repentance.
If the person in the scenario mentioned above does not return to the faith, then that person did not have it to begin with.
Or better yet, Romans 8 - we are predestined.
I don't think this means God drags a blaspheming unbeliever who
"once believed" across the finish line, do you?
Another clincher:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Neither works unfortunately.
Shema - your example doesnt apply here because, look: People in the verse are NOT BELIEVERS. They are in danger of perishing. Believers OTOH , cant perish ( lose salvation )
So for your verse to prove what you want it to prove you have to dismiss your belief in OSAS and say that believers can actually lose salvation.
HK- your verse doesnt apply here either because it talks about people that never believed in the first place. We are debating the people that were actual belivers, born again.
But, were they actual believers? They're not of us anymore.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:09:56 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: online
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quote:
quote:
Neither works unfortunately.
Shema - your example doesnt apply here because, look: People in the verse are NOT BELIEVERS. They are in danger of perishing. Believers OTOH , cant perish ( lose salvation )
So for your verse to prove what you want it to prove you have to dismiss your belief in OSAS and say that believers can actually lose salvation.
HK- your verse doesnt apply here either because it talks about people that never believed in the first place. We are debating the people that were actual belivers, born again.
But, were they actual believers? They're not of us anymore.
Not true believers. The point John is making is that their going out is to make it known that they weren't saved in the first place.
The same can be said of the atheist. They left the faith and it was made manifest they never truly believed.
With verses like these in the bible, how can we even talk of Atheists being saved?
(1 Peter 4:18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:23:24 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
The problem with TC, rw, is that he thinks that "having faith" is what saves. I thought all calvinists knew that it is God who saves those who have believed. And He gives eternal life at the moment of belief, so that if later on, they lose their faith, they still have the gift that God gave them.
The problem with FG is that he has never heard of mediate means or means of grace or providence.
What is your point? When the gift of eternal life is given, it is not taken back.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:27:25 PM
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TheosCentric
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One has to wonder if it was ever given in the first place...
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:30:43 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I understand your point, TC, but you made a statement one can die an atheist and have eternal life and said it cant happen.
I said - it can. Prove that it cant.
The proof that it can't is in the fact that there is a change of heart regarding salvation... A new creature in Christ can no more deny his Master, as one who isn't saved can deny theirs...
Every time a believer sins, he/she has effectively denied their Master. Paul tells us that we obey as slaves whoever we present ourselves as slaves to.
When we (believers) sin, we have presented ourselves to our sin nature. In that sense, we have denied our Master, and turned ourselves over to the sin nature, you know, the one we have died to.
Rom 6:3 says "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"
Then, in v.12, Paul admonishes us (believers), "Therefore do NOT let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts".
Clearly, we are still able to do so, or his command is meaningless and irrelevant.
He also said in Gal 5:16 to "walk by the means of the Holy Spirit". Why? Otherwise, we "will fulfill the lusts of the flesh."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:34:28 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
No, it stands in stark contradiction to all understanding of calvinism.
Yes, it does. It also stands in stark contradiction to orthodox Baptist (SBC and Independent), Methodist, Episcopal, Church of God, Grace Community, Presbyterian, etc. doctrine. It does smell just slightly of Roman Catholic, but even they have a purer Gospel embedded. It certainly is not EOC or Russian Orthodox. In other words, it stands in stark contrast from Christianity.
No, in stark contrast from a lot of "brands" of Christianity.
quote:
My favorite Southern Baptist, the late Adrian Rogers said, "The faith that fizzles before the finish had a flaw from the first." It may sound funny, but that is good epistemology and solidly biblical.
Verses, please?
quote:
FG, you just don't understand Matthew 13 or Romans 10. That's it.
Really? I'm so glad you shared.
quote:
Your whole argument from start to finish has been based on loose interpretations. You demand explicit text from us, then give faulty implications (inferences) of a few Bible verses. You have never defended your position.
I don't know what you have been reading, but I have. You may call my pov a "loose interpretation", but that would be your opinion. I've given specific text which is routinely rejected by you calvinists.
If I've given any "faulty inferences", why don't you point them out instead of merely claiming such?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 4:38:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Neither works unfortunately.
Shema - your example doesnt apply here because, look: People in the verse are NOT BELIEVERS. They are in danger of perishing. Believers OTOH , cant perish ( lose salvation )
So for your verse to prove what you want it to prove you have to dismiss your belief in OSAS and say that believers can actually lose salvation.
HK- your verse doesnt apply here either because it talks about people that never believed in the first place. We are debating the people that were actual belivers, born again.
But, were they actual believers? They're not of us anymore.
Why add the "anymore" when the text doesn't have it? The point of the text is that they were "NOT of us". iow, never had been.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 5:11:18 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
One has to wonder if it was ever given in the first place...
God is no "indian giver", pardon the phrase. When He gives His gift, it is permanent.
The issue is about those who have actually believed, and then their faith has failed. Seems you just deny or ignore the passages that show us that believers have lost their faith by claiming they weren't saved in the first place.
You have no answer for Solomon, who became an idolator "when he was old" by the influence of his many wifes. 1 Kings 11:1-13, which summarizes his life. The only reason God didn't tear his kingdom from him while he was still alive was only because of his father, David.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 5:14:01 PM
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TheosCentric
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The question is whether or not God gave it in the first place.
Did the person truly believe from the heart? One's faith will persevere if they are saved.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:57:30 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
The question is whether or not God gave it in the first place.
Did the person truly believe from the heart? One's faith will persevere if they are saved.
Where do you find that one's faith will persevere? I read repeatedly of those who have shipwrecked their faith (1 Tim 1:9), have abandoned the faith (1 Tim 4:1), have denied the faith (1 Tim 5:8), and said to be worse than an unbeliever, whose sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ (1 Tim 5:11), have already turned away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15), have wandered from the faith (1 Tim 6:10, 21), have wandered away from the truth and have destroyed the faith of some (2 Tim 2:18.
A pretty grim picture, no doubt. Yet, if Paul was speaking of unbelievers here, why would he be concerned about them, since they are not saved anyway? Further, how can an unbeliever "wander", "depart", or "deny the faith and be called worse than an unbeliever"?
Or, young widows whose sensual desires have "overcome their dedication to Christ"?
None of these passages can be speaking of unbelievers. That is plain from the words themselves.
No unbeliever ever can be said to have "dedication to Christ".
No unbeliever can be called "worse than an unbeliever" (they already are one).
No unbeliever can be described as "already turned away to follow Satan", since they are born dead in sins, and under slavery to sin.
Note 2 Tim 2:19, "everyone who confesses the name of the Lord MUST turn away from wickedness". Do you note that Paul didn't write "will" but MUST?
iow, it's something believers must do; that is, turn away from wickedness.
Or 2 Tim 4:4, "they will turn their ears away from the Truth and turn aside to myths". How can that be referring to unbelievers? Their ears cannot "turn away from the Truth", since they've never focused on the truth in the first place.
If you disagree with me, please explain these verses.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:57:44 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1783
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
I think you should reconsider.
We proclaim to gospel to the lost simply to see who's already saved, KJ?
So how many times, how many ways, how many prayers before we can see who is been chosen for salvation?
There is a simple way for us to figure this out with a real and stable conclusion.
1. God has clearly seen the future which would include every soul that ends up in heaven and hell. Agreed?
2. If God knows that in the future there will be ten thousand people in hell do you think for one moment you or myself will persuade one of those ten thousand people to be anywhere other than where God sees them?
quote:
There is no reality to this view and this is certainly not what I see from Calvinist preachers.
While I agree our purpose is not to extract a decision from a man, so to, we should not presume he will never believe, nor can we assume those who come to be saved are ever elect, can we?
On what basis do we "dust off our shoes" and move on brother?
The elect man might simply be refusing and we need to keep hammering away?
Where's irresistible grace in all this? Is it irresistible only when God chooses to
make is so - this "effectual" call you all claim is only "effectual" because the
man relented and repented? This cannot be if God is in control from A to Z.
If Jesus was so interested in convincing and saving all people do you think He would have said these sorts of things;
Luke 9;
5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them.
Matt 10;
5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
11"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Mark 6;
10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them." 12They went out and preached that people should repent.
quote:
But it all makes perfect sense if the man is able to repent. Everything Paul says makes sense if he is preaching to a man with a choice.
There is a reason to "preach as a dying man to dying men" and the answer is not simply to deliver the message to the ears of the elect!
Why would the elect need convincing if they have no choice, KJ?
People are given choices. To repent or not to repent. Those are indeed choices.
People are told to come to Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.
They should choose to do that all on their own but guess what......they just dont.
62 Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again?
63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
Its just sort of too bad no one naturally chooses to repent;
Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin.
“No one is righteous—not even one.
No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.
All have turned away; all have become useless.
No one does good, not a single one.”
What is really important to understand is that even if a person has done a million good things it does not make a person good. One sin no matter how trivial when compared to other sins is still evil. Sin which is evil comes from that which is evil. The human heart is evil. It is wasted. It is junk. It is garbage and it does not matter how good people think the human heart is even if it has done many so called good things.
People are not the standard by which things are measured. God is the standard and everybody falls waaaaaay short.
Gently instruct those who oppose the truth.
Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth.
Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap.
For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
I do not agree with the "Cornelius theology".
Saving people is what God does best........not me.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:04:34 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
If Jesus was so interested in convincing and saving all people do you think He would have said these sorts of things;
Luke 9; 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them.
Matt 10; 5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
11"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Mark 6; 10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them." 12They went out and preached that people should repent.
For the very reason that God "gives them over to their own lusts" in Romans 1. God does not force people to believe, nor cause them to. those who aren't interested in seeking Him, He "gives over" to their own lust pattern.
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People are given choices. To repent or not to repent. Those are indeed choices.
People are told to come to Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.
They should choose to do that all on their own but guess what......they just dont.
Not all. Some, or many, but not all. In fact, you chose, though you don't believe it.
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I do not agree with the "Cornelius theology".
There is no evidence of your pov from Acts 10 or 11. There is clear evidence from my pov in Acts 10 and 11.
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Saving people is what God does best........not me.
We all agree with that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:04:50 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 700
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: online
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"Calvinism/Arminianism" is an interesting thread, but not accurately named IMO. I would prefer "True gospel/counterfeit gospel". One recognizes that God is on the throne, the other puts man on the throne. It is not surprising that the majority cannot understand Grace because the natural man cannot understand the things of God and they are hidden from him. Satans greatest deception isn't that he doesn't exist or the countless cults the world has ever known, it is a theology that so closely resembles the original that only a seemingly minor difference separates the two; who's will?.
For where God built a church, there the Devil would also build a chapel.
Martin Luther
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The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:19:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5958
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
As for others - lovely posts, gentlemen, but spare me the drama.
Drama... Like the following?
I said - it can. Prove that it cant. Not to mention this very post I am replying to...
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To the point, please- If Solomon would have died while worshipping other gods he would have been lost?
It was just by chance he didn't?
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I agree with FG - seem like you are thinking we sustain out salvation by our own efforts.That is troubling
Why should that trouble folks who believe they obtained salvation by their own efforts?
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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